At least 2 previously undecided voters now support Biden so I suppose this headline is technically correct, it’s just completely meaningless and insignificant statistically.
This comment says it better than I could. The debate was a disaster for Biden. Which sucks.
Samples size of a focus group on Univision…
It did quote a poll that Biden is only up 1% among Latino voters tho
Fucking insane that it’s that close. But I guess when Biden literally copies trump illegal border policies, it’s hard to get them scared of trump.
tbf, arent those border policies somewhat popular among some latino voters? Im not defending those policies as they dont align with my own views on the topic, but theres plenty of room for people that managed to get through the immigration system legally to look down of people who havent, or for people born in the country to dislike migration even if their ancestors did it, or for people that want to “pull up the ladder behind them” so to speak. Biden couldnt exactly expect Trump’s border policies to automatically win him that demographic either way.
There’s also the fact that cartels run a lot of border towns. It’s not that border area Latinos are mad at illegal migration so much as they don’t want South Texas to be like Northern Mexico.
Also, it’s a little silly to treat Latinos as a single group. South Florida Cubans are different from everyone, basically. Recent immigrants are different from 2nd or 3rd generation ones. Ted Cruz’s full name is Rafael Edward Cruz and he’s different from people who aren’t bozos.
Ted Cruz’s full name is Rafael Edward Cruz and he’s different from people.
he’s a reptillian in a skin suit. so he’s basically different from humans. altogether.
when Biden literally copies trump illegal border policies
There are three big problems with immigration at the present moment:
- There’s a huge backlog of asylum / deportation cases which means people stay in custody in racist and oppressive overcrowded prisons
- We’re rate limiting the people coming into the country (see point #1), which means a lot of asylum seekers who are trying to do it legally wind up waiting for months (maybe years now, IDK) on the other side of the Mexican border, basically just living in a big, dangerous, squalid, crime-ridden open-air field with no facilities for life, and no job, no medical care for anyone no matter how young or old, it’s fuckin dangerous
- The whole agency in charge of the thing is racist and oppressive
Biden is unable fix the third without an act of God (or, without firing the whole system and then finding 40,000+ people who want to be immigration police who are not racist, so basically an act of God).
Biden is unable to fix the first two problems also, although they do have legislative solutions, because the Republicans block anything he does, even when he tried promising to do some cruel or racist things as a compromise in order to get them to also agree to some badly needed things (mostly, increasing ICE funding so they can at least house the people they have in better conditions, and increasing the number of judges to process cases so people don’t wait for a year before their case is heard).
And, any time he tries to do anything about it, e.g. reducing the rate of people allowed to come across the border or increasing funding for ICE, everyone on the left as far as I can tell thinks he’s just being cruel on purpose for no reason and gets really mad at him.
So my questions are:
- What illegal border policies do you think Biden is copying?
- What specific thing do you think he should do, instead of trying to increase the number of judges and the funding for ICE, and compromising with the Republicans to try to get it done when they block him on it?
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Oh, I know. I am just stating the message for the rest of the people.
The bad faith folks used to have these epic debates with me back and forth but I think they have mostly stopped doing that and I am heartened to think that maybe they decided that trying to say anything I was saying wasn’t true was an obvious losing battle and they were hurting their cause by even making the attempt.
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I don’t consider myself a Republican or a Democrat, although unless things change drastically in American politics, I can’t see myself ever voting Republican by the time I’m dead and gone. With that said, I mentioned to someone yesterday that if I didn’t have the experience of living through Trump’s time in office, this debate would make me seriously consider voting for him.
I really don’t believe that this debate is going to sway many undecided voters toward Biden. If you compare their performance at face value, Trump was unusually well-spoken, and Biden seemed like he belonged in a nursing home. Half of what Trump said was complete bullshit, but how many undecided voters are actually reading articles that show how full of it he really is?
What you have is a person who stated lies as fact and did a decent job of being convincing and a person who was generally truthful but seemed like he “wasn’t all there.” Undecided voters who “don’t follow politics” are going to see this and say “You know, I think I understand why people support Trump.” That’s a very scary prospect.
I don’t dislike Biden, but my personal opinion is that the best thing he could do for the country is step aside and let a different Democrat take the nomination. Geriatrics like Trump and Biden need to retire, do whatever they feel like in their golden years, and let someone else take the reins. A competent politician in his 50s or 60s would absolutely destroy Trump, and that’s exactly what we need right now.
What you have is a person who stated lies as fact and did a decent job of being convincing and a person who was generally truthful but seemed like he “wasn’t all there.” Undecided voters who “don’t follow politics” are going to see this and say “You know, I think I understand why people support Trump.” That’s a very scary prospect.
to be fair to Biden, he wasn’t all there. I mean, he had a cold, and if that doesn’t fog things up, the medications would.
But, I feel like somebody on his Campaign programing team should have pointed out that if the win-conditions for a successful debate is literally staying alive (see John Olliver rant,) that there wasn’t really much to be gained by it in the first place. it’s not like we don’t know their positions. we’ve already had 4 years of these guys. (well, 3.5 for biden. close enough for politics.)
If you want democrats to win, you shouldn’t delude yourself with this stupid article that takes the opinion of one undecided voter (asked out of a group of about a dozen people) and pretend this is something that applies to undecided voters at large. This is copium on the level of 2016 and we’d all be better off if we didn’t huff this bullshit. We should be taking steps to improve our chances, not gaslighting ourselves.
I don’t trust Newsweek, you probably shouldn’t either. However, with that being said… if the debate would have gone differently, and let’s just say Joe had a bad sore throat instead of “a cold,” and Joe went up there and said nothing at all, he’d still have my vote in this election. Honestly, I think if Joe would have said nothing, and just let Trump lie, that would have been better than how it went.
He appeared as weak, and a bit incoherent up there. He resorted to name calling on multiple occasions.
Trump lied about 90% of the things he said. Trump sounded better, and didn’t really take the cheap shots at Biden that we expected.
There was nothing about that debate that would have swayed “undecided voters” (who’s that by the way) to vote FOR Biden as a result of the debate. The number of lies coming from Trump may have persuaded some people to vote against him however.
Idk why you mention the trustworthiness of Newsweek. This is an article about a Univision focus group.
You don’t know why I mention Newsweek when the link for the post goes to Newsweek?
This would be like me saying not to trust the OP because he posted the link. Figure it out, bud.
So what you’re saying is that you saw the link was Newsweek, and then decided to read it anyway, instead of dismissing anything in it as potentially non-credible.
That’d be like if someone lied to you their whole life, but you believe them this time because they’re citing DailyMail.
Nah, that’s not a good metaphor. Do better.
That’s a weak attempt at trolling. Try harder.
What kind of head in the sand, wishy-washy troglodyte is undecided for this election? We’ve already had 4 years of each, with 24 hour news coverage for literally everything they do.
According to this recent study, young people who want a more progressive option
"A majority (60%) think the U.S. should increase spending on social programs and increase taxes on businesses and wealthy Americans.
This survey finds no evidence that a rightward ideological shift would solve Biden’s problems with swing voters. Swing voters broadly think Biden needs to take more action to solve our country’s problems and broadly lean left on economic and social issues. Only 16% say that Biden being “too liberal” is a reason they might not vote for him.
The top two issues swing voters select as actions that would make them definitely vote for Biden are raising taxes on the wealthy (23%) and raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour (18%)."
Young people are fucking stupid then if they think trump gets them anywhere nearer their goals.
Source- I was a dumb youth in my day. Vote for the car that gets you closest to your destination, not farther away from it. And definitely don’t abstain and then complain after the fact that things are worse.
I think a lot of voters of every age vote against their own interests.
I mean honestly it’s hard to imagine that a Trump presidency would be good for anyone who is not either part of the Trump family or already very wealthy.
Both are very true… I wish the DNC was willing to do whatever it takes to defeat him, even if that means going with a progressive candidate
The DNC needs to accept that this is the group they need to go after… And accept it for what it is, not think they’re magically going to change… Convince Biden to drop out and nominate a progressive if they want to win.
It’s too bad those voters never show up.
They show up more than millennials, x, or boomers did at that age
I suppose that would make sense. Trump doubled down on tax cuts for the wealthy and burning the hell out of fossil fuels. So even if someone were oblivious to his lying, and Trump was able to “perform” more confidently, the end result were policies with grave implications. Also, on the one weak point with progressives, falling to protect Palestinians, Trump’s criticism was that Biden wasn’t pro Israel hard enough…
“One weak point” as in progressive’s only weak argument, or as in the only thing Biden is weak on that they want?
Because there are quite a few other things Biden is weak on that progressives want.
Perhaps an oversimplification, but I’d say it’s the one point that progressives are so pissed that they would tend to forget that the other likely choice would rather see more genocide. On other points I’d say progressives may wish for better, but are willing to be more pragmatic for now.
According to this recent study, young people who want a more progressive option
I mean I know the young are generally ignorant by the simple fact of their age and lack of experience, but in what universe do they think that’s an option? Maybe like 2 years ago we could have pushed for something, but now? It’s Trump or Biden. Being undecided is just saying you don’t know which of those two you would vote for, any other vote is just a vote for the person you like least to win.
The Dems could still push Biden to drop out and replace him with someone who might actually have a chance
Generously, people who were 14-16yo when Trump’s first term ended and weren’t fully aware of what was going on at the time.
Realistically, a large portion of ‘mainstream’ Republicans embarrassed by what the GOP has become - but still not certain if they can go against decades of Fox News programming and vote for a shudders Democrat.
New voters who never cared about politics previously, and may have just started paying attention when they to college and realized everyone there does. There’s a precedent for that being the case at least heh
I feel like this implies the youth vote matters anywhere, and the one thing we all know is young people don’t vote.
Yeah, that’s why all these college campuses have had protests. They don’t care.
That’s not something new, young people traditionally have strong political opinions and fail to turn out for elections. Even in presidential elections, which are the highest turnout for the demographic, you’re looking at maybe 40% in the standard year. Turnout was better during COVID when tensions were high and there was a lot of momentum to get Trump out, but even then it was in the realm of~50%.
Polls are all trash, but this focus group we believe.
This one affirms our convictions so it must be true
No one who saw that debate was inspired by Biden, no one. Ok maybe 1 out of 100, maybe. But 99 of them were not. Gaslighting won’t help, the goose is cooked.
It’s like you didn’t even read the article or what they said and are trying to pretend they said something else. Amazing that you would pull the term “gaslighting” out, it’s almost as if you know what you are doing.
To reiterate he article, they were turned off by Trump’s lies and repeating the same things and avoiding the questions. None says they were inspired by Biden.
Did you read the article? Here’s a quote:
The clip shows a group of about a dozen people and one of them being interviewed by a journalist.
So you think this can be applied broadly to undecided voter sentiment in general?
Lol did you? It literally cites a single voter and a poll showing Trump trending better among Latinos than previous electoral performances for that demographic. Nothing in this article actually warranted the headline and meta polls show Trump still ahead. Delusion will only hand us another 4 years of Trump
You fighting to sow discord against the only viable alternative is working to get Trump, pointing out that regular people found reason to prefer his responses over Trump and highlighting what they are is useful in helping people highlight the many advantages of Biden.
Yes he’s not as energetic as a lunatic, probably because he’s a sensible human that’s been working hard on his lifelong goal of improving the society he lives in and pushing through sensible and practical reforms that actually help real people and put the nation on track to deal with the many challenges it faces going forward.
So nice job of not addressing the fact that you didn’t read the article and nothing I said indicated that I’m trying to sow discord. I will vote for Biden and argue that others should as well
But pretending that the debate helped that cause is worthless. We are losing and pretending we are not doesn’t help. Stop fighting with people pointing out reality and be more vocal on why to vote for Biden.
Criticizing Biden right now is not “working to get Trump”. Biden could easily step down and get behind an alternative candidate. These things aren’t black and white when we’re still like 4-5 months out from the election.
FR FR
One of those “Vote for me because I’m not my opponent” moments.
I supported Biden before the debate, I support him now after the debate. But now it’s more of a “Ah fuck, look at this mess I’m going to be voting for, ah fuck what the fuck America aaaaaaah.” Than it was before.
Do you feel like it’s a mess now? I’m not voting for Biden because i think he is a good debater, I’m voting for him because hes done a perfectly fine job as president during some tough times. He’s smart enough to let the systems that have held together for decades continue to function and to take advice from experts.
Trump wants to dismantle the government and fill it with trump loyalists, which adds even more incentive to make sure Biden wins.
Trump’s lies were more obvious than normal. So there’s that, I guess.
Maybe they just related to someone having trouble keeping up with a yelling idiot liar?
His lies seemed more artful and effortless to me, and he stayed calm and lucid the entire time.
I’ll agree, but he was at the same time more bold, like saying everyone wanted to overturn Roe v Wade. Confident and competent lying can get you far, but if you lie about how the people watching would feel, you undermine all your other lying.
There are few things more maddening than claiming you know how someone feels more than they themselves do. A very credible liar can be undone if they lie that well on a matter the audience personally knows better. Suddenly all the benefit of the doubt purchased by the confidence is erased.
Very capable delusions
The best fictionary
Make all the throwaway jokes you want but a low information voter would probably perceive him the way I described and wouldn’t catch the lies. Trump may be older than in 2016/2020 but he appeared present and even reassuring to uninformed or on-the-fence previous Trump supporter eyes.
Yeah that’s what propaganda does. I could absolutely see that MAGA and uninformed people would fall for this tripe.
BIDEN: I supported Roe v. Wade, which had three trimesters.
First time is between a woman and a doctor. Second time is between a doctor and an extreme situation. A third time is between the doctor – I mean, it’d be between the woman and the state.
The idea that the politicians – that the founders wanted the politicians to be the ones making decisions about a woman’s health is ridiculous. That’s the last – no politician should be making that decision. A doctor should be making those decisions. That’s how it should be run. That’s what you’re going to do.
And if I’m elected, I’m going to restore Roe v. Wade.
TRUMP: So that means he can take the life of the baby in the ninth month and even after birth, because some states, Democrat-run, take it after birth. Again, the governor – former governor of Virginia: put the baby down, then we decide what to do with it.
So he’s in – he’s willing to, as we say, rip the baby out of the womb in the ninth month and kill the baby.
Nobody wants that to happen. Democrat or Republican, nobody wants it to happen.
I think a big part of the problem is Biden is a good politician, he’s generally honest and forthright which is what everyone claims to want.
But we’re all so lost in marvel movie logic and cinema tropes that people don’t respond to it, they just want a showman - meanwhile politics is boiled down to robot voice tiktoks and reddit posts that barely scratch the headline so again people don’t respond to reality they need a hyper targeted exaggeration coated in catchy idealism and easily retweetable slogans.
Biden says exactly the right things, minis the sort of speech error we all make occasionally, and his record backs up his ability to actually get things done - often in a way that doesn’t draw massive attention but incrementally makes things better.
Trump is a liar and an actual idiot, like genuinely stupid and uninformed - but he says anything that will sound good at the time so it makes it seem to people that aren’t paying attention or follow complex arguments that he’s the one who’ll get things done
You’re not wrong, but the people you describe aren’t the ones this article is about.
Agreed. How about the other guy? Was anybody inspired by him?
I’m really sad that it’s come to this. It’s how I feel when my coworkers vote to go out to a sushi restaurant. I don’t like fish and I’m allergic to shellfish, so I eat my pile of steamed rice and bite my tongue when they want to split the bill equally.
What was I talking about again?
I was thinking the debate rules actually saved Trump from his worst impulses. Biden was allowed to speak at full length and Trump gets to appear like he can participate in a civilized conversation while Biden would sometimes go off the rails while trying to fill his time. A lot of his embarrassments started in a decent place, but pivoted badly in the middle.
Trump confidently lied repeatedly without consequences, and so long as someone is unaware that it’s lies, I could imagine them finding Trump’s rhetoric credible that night.
You have a very interesting point about the muted mics actually being in Trump’s favor while simultaneously allowing Biden to ramble like Grandpa Simpson.
I learned absolutely nothing new from the debate. Trump is a habitual liar and Biden is a doddering old man. Out of our two wonderful choices I’ll be voting Democrat but I still wouldn’t trust either of them to drive a car I’m in let alone run the country.
yeah but I bet they were suddenly worried
Perhaps, but I think there’s a lot of people overstating the impact Biden’s performance will have on the end result.
November is a long way off. There’s plenty of time for either party to fuck things up.
Trump’s legal stuff still has a way to run between now and November which I think will have a far bigger impact.
The problem is the only people saying this are people who have been saying the same things for the whole time and are desperate for it to ve true so it’s hard to believe them, it’s not coming from my friends that weren’t yelling about Biden every excuse they got.
It’s like thuderfoots recent starliner stream, he predicted it would fail and spent the whole time saying ‘oh shit, here it goes… looks like it’s going to explode…’ even when both bits were returned safely he was calling the spaceX staff morons for celebrating because he was so desperate to be right.
People wanted Biden to fail because then they could push their brand of politics but he’s doing great based on actual metrics, so they try to make him fail using opion and tone setting behavior - the exact way Trump beat Hillary, memed that she was bad until no one went to vote.
What? I wanted Biden to succeed. And he wasn’t doing good in the metrics, his approval ratings were bad, being other dems who are way ahead of him in polls. He was tied with Trump, which is insane given how bad of a candidate Trump is. Most all voters (65% I think) thought he was too old before the debate and wanted another choice.
What will they think now?
No, but Trump blatantly lying about everything, and refusing to admit that he was convicted possibly did turn some “undecided” voters away from him. This election isn’t so much voting for Biden, as it is against Trump. Or for Trump for the idiots that vote for the felon.
Undecided Latino voters specifically according to the article. I don’t think that should be too surprising based on the lies Trump was spewing about illegal immigration.
It’s so stupid that there are “undecided” latino voters at this point. As if it wasn’t enough to know that Trump was a liar when he mentioned that Mexican immigrants were criminals and rapists back then?
Oh good, I guess Biden has absolutely nothing to worry about then…
Democrats will continue to act like he’s gonna coast into office by virtue of not being Trump. They will continue to ignore all warnings from their left. And they will blame the left when he loses. It’s the 2016 playbook all over again.
I guess it depends on what you mean by Democrats. There were some quite high ranked people openly critical and suggesting replacing him (more than I would expect). Dems are not a singular entity… but the only person with the power to replace the candidate at this point in time is Joe Biden himself. So if he doesn’t step down I do expect most high-ranked Dems to fall in line.
If he loses. Maybe the complacent non-voters learned something. No thanks to the Ds, but neither Trump nor Biden winning is a done deal
Any lesson they might learn is a one way trip to hell with no way back
If he loses? What’s he doing to win? Which group of voters is he trying to pick up? Netanyahu can’t vote for him. Republicans won’t vote for him no matter how many of their policies he adopts.
Centrist Democrats alone aren’t enough. No matter how large a majority they think they command.
Leftists who aren’t completely brain-dead will of course vote for his administration.
Calling people braindead is a great way to win them over.
I don’t think winning you over was their goal.
I’m not even one of the people they’re talking about, since I intend to vote for Biden.
This is literally a new article about an X post where they’re interviewing some Latinos… Objectively, the cope is insane. Joe is fucked
Yeah this is reporting on the feedback from a focus group of like 20 people conducted by some Latino TV station… Not sure how representative that is of the wider electorate…
As a decided Joe Biden voter I am confused but I thank you.
Ok let’s see how the polls move. If they move in the right direction, Biden stays on. If they move in the direction everyone knows they’ll move in, he steps down. Deal?
If I’ve learned anything over the years, it is that geriatric power vampires never willingly step down.
Considering thw age of both Biden and Trump, either being forced to work four years more should be considered elder abuse.
You think Trump is going to “work”? He’ll just sign whatever paper is in front of him so he can golf and steal more documents to sell.
I am an optimist after all.
Feinstein enters the chat…
There will be no negotiations. You will accept what the DNC… your betters… puts forward to you. You will bow and kiss the oldest moldiest feet in human existence.
Now stand up and clap. And you will smile. Bigger now… I see you’re not smiling big enough after placing your vote. Sorry, it’s too late for you… you are now antisemetic and you are 110% responsible for the Republicans installing a authoritarian government.
Don’t forget to chant "Joe Biden is the most labor friendly president in history " 20 times every time when you wake up.
In this thread:
Everyone not on the Right doing what they do best:
Argue incessantly with one another.
And ya’ll wonder why the Left struggles so often.
This is unfortunately true. We have the same shit in Germany. The Nazis are uniting while the left fight each other because one doesn’t support lgbtq+ enough, the other group forgot to gender correctly, other hardliners won’t go to pro-democracy protests because CDU voters are amongst them. It’s pathetic. We need a strong and united front against the far right. Not this hissy bullshit.
That phrase “Don’t let perfect get in the way of good” is our stumbling block. We want our candidate to support everything we support and no less. Friggin’ Trump is a rapist, a traitor, a racist, etc., but if he says he wants let’s say Christianity to be the national religion, the Christians are like “Hey he supports us, we’ll vote for him,” and completely ignore everything else. Single issue, boom, they’re in. The left needs to value unity over their individual issues right now.
If you want to see a great example of this is in a comment section, watch the comments on Boing Boing for a bit. The site used to be one of the top 100 sites, IIRC, and maybe still is, and the comments used to be rather fun and interesting. In recent years, it’s been take over by a very far-left fringe with a very particular interest in just checking off boxes and playing “oppression olympics”. It’s a textbook case of this. I got on there a few years ago and made a few comments in defense of sanity and unity among the left.
Some of the best posts making great points got taken down in quick order, even though I was entirely civil the entire time. Those arguing against me - if not the mods themselves - were absolutely violating the supposed rules - had theirs all left up, even if it was using things like ad hominem or just using dumb and overused giphy memes as a supposed “response”. Even anyone that tried to cut a middle ground between me and this echo chamber had their posts nuked, too.
Anyone on the fence witnessing such a thing is not going to vote for leftists, I can tell you that much. If they don’t vote for donnie (or his next version), they’ll just sit out on elections.
Keep the masses divided and all that jazz
Not arguing among each other is what helped turn the party of Lincoln to what it is today.
I think its a social defense mechanism, I met an old bastard who saw it in full swing after Catalonia when he was a teen. When a bunch of unions where he lived purged out authoritarian elements especially if they sympathized with the Soviets. Basically use debate to figure out who is stupid, lying, or compromised so that you can deal with them. Such things are helped along by it being a semi-constant force.
This is not surprising, because everyone knows Latinos are avid golfers. Why wouldn’t they support the candidate with a 6, uh, I meant 8, handicap?
