• omarfw@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    312
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    1 month ago

    Now they can replace them without paying unemployment and pay the new workers a lower wage. This is what they wanted to happen. Mega corporations are a problem we need to solve as a society.

    • orclev@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      131
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      1 month ago

      Quality programmers are a finite resource. Amazon chewed through the entire unskilled labor market with their warehouses and then struggled to find employees to meet their labor needs. If they try the same stunt with skilled labor they’re in for a very rude awakening. They’ll be able to find people, but only for well above market rates. They’re highly likely to find in the long run it would have been much cheaper to hang onto the people they already had.

      • omarfw@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        100
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        1 month ago

        The whole problem with companies like Amazon is that hardly anyone in charge of them seems to care about long term sustainability. They all just invest enough effort to squeeze out some short term profits, earn their bonuses and then leave for another company to do it all again. Nobody is interested in sustainability because there is no incentive to. They’re playing hot potato with the collapse of the company.

        • WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          40
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 month ago

          Now expand that to the entire planetary economy. Unsustainable short term gains is the entire industrial revolution.

          We’re only 300 years in and most life and ecosystems on Earth have been destroyed and homogenized to service humanity. We’re essentially a parasite. It’s not surprising that the most successful corporations are the most successful parasites. It’s just parasites, doing parasitic things, because they’re parasites… from the top down.

          • Wanderer@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 month ago

            There has been efficiency gains throughout. Capitalism is amazing for that, far better than other systems.

            The problem is too many people. If standard of living is to increase then the resource requirement is due to massive unsustainable population growth.

            That and the fact the public hate externalities and don’t want them used at all never mind aggressively.

            • WoodScientist@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              1 month ago

              The problem is too many people. If standard of living is to increase then the resource requirement is due to massive unsustainable population growth.

              They’re both important. And crucially, people in developed countries use a lot more resources than those in undeveloped countries. Just look at the resource utilization of our richest people. We have billionaires operating private rocket companies! If somehow, say due to really really good automation, orbital rockets could be made cheap enough for the average person to afford, we would have average middle class people regularly launching rockets into space and taking private trips to the Moon. Just staggering levels of resource use. If we could build and maintain homes very cheaply due to advanced robotics, the average person would live in a private skyscraper if they could afford it. Imagine the average suburban lot, except with a tower built on it 100 stories tall. If it was cheap enough to build and maintain that sort of thing, that absolutely would become the norm.

              • Wanderer@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 month ago

                The only billionaire I know of that is launching rockets is Elon Musk.

                That’s just evidence that capitalism is efficient. Because SpaceX has revolutionised space travel making the only reusable rocket doing something all the government agencies said was impossible. NASAs new unbuilt rocket is using tech from the 1970 that they are going to throe away into the ocean on every launch.

                The rest you say is meaningless. How you expect this robotic skyscrapers to be built? Some MIT masters project or some capitalist experiment?

                • WoodScientist@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  1 month ago

                  Bezos also has a rocket company. Plus there’s Richard Branson. And others.. And then you have private jet travel, massive mega yachts, and countless other extravagances. For a certain class of billionaire, having a private rocket company is a vanity project. These rocket companies are vanity projects by rich sci fi nerds. Yes, they’ve done some really good technical work, but they’re only possible because their founders were willing to sink billions into them even without any proof they’ll make a profit.

                  What you are missing is that as people’s wealth increases, their resource use just keeps going up and up and up. To the point where when people are wealthy enough, they’re using orders of magnitude more energy and resources than the average citizen of even developed countries. Billionaires have enough wealth that they can fly rockets just because they think they’re cool, even if they have no real path to profitability.

                  And no, the hypothetical of the robot skyscrapers is not “meaningless.” You just have a poor imagination. To have that type of world we only need one thing - a robot that can build a copy of itself from raw materials, or a series of robots that can collectively reproduce themselves from raw materials gathered in the environment. Once you have self-replicating robots, it becomes very easy to scale up to that kind of consumption on a broad scale. If you have self-replicating robots, the only real limit to the total number you can have on the planet is the total amount of sunlight available to power all of them.

                  The real point isn’t the specific examples I gave. The point, which you are missing entirely, is that total resource use is a function of wealth and technological capability. Raw population has very little impact on it. If our automation gets a lot better, or something else makes us much wealthier, we would see vast increases in total resource use even if our population was cut in half.

        • circuitfarmer@lemmy.sdf.org
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          1 month ago

          They all just invest enough effort to squeeze out some short term profits, earn their bonuses and then leave for another company to do it all again.

          Amazon is not at all alone in this. Much of 2024 capitalism, at least within the tech space, works like this pretty much everywhere.

      • greenskye@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        24
        ·
        1 month ago

        That’s the next executive’s problem. These executives will jump ship with their golden parachutes before any of that affects them.

        • Jrockwar@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          13
          ·
          1 month ago

          Well then bring it on. If feels too big to fail, but if (hypothetically) Amazon were to go under, the world would be a better place.

        • Kalysta@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 month ago

          They may not want them, but with how many people are switching to things like AWS, they may find they need them.

          And it will ultimately cost them more to find new people when they realize that they’re pissing off their customers with their poor new hires.

          I will be happy to watch them squirm when they come to this realization. Karma is a bitch, Amazon.

      • Sinuhe@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        ·
        edit-2
        1 month ago

        An awakening would mean they would analyze and understand the situation. They won’t. Amazon has and probably always had a bullish “my way or the highway” attitude - ask people what they think, pretend you care, then ignore everything they might say. Upper managers make decisions uniquely based off costs and short term vision, and are never held accountable for the consequences. I worked there for years and you really can’t imagine how bad the work culture is there, whatever you have in mind is worse in reality

      • 0x0@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        1 month ago

        in the long run

        That’s a foreign concept for management, they only see one quarter at a time.

        • jj4211@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 month ago

          No, they see further than that. Sometimes their restricted stock takes a whole year to be released!

      • jj4211@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        1 month ago

        Problem is for a company like Amazon, even if the brain drain will result in obviously inferior customer experience, it could take years before that happens and for it to be recognized and for the business results suffer for it. In the meantime, bigger margins and restricted stock matures and they can get their money now.

        Particularly with business clients, like AWS customers, it will take a huge amount of obvious screwups before those clients are willing to undertake the active effort of leaving.

    • eee@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      43
      ·
      1 month ago

      yeah, the only problem is that this results in the best talent leaving, you’re stuck with people who have nowhere else to go. it’s one of those short-term profits kinda things, which is why Wall St loves it so much.

    • GBU_28@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      20
      ·
      1 month ago

      And they want people off the vesting ramp as early as possible.

      Amazon does 5-15-40-40

      • jaybone@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        1 month ago

        I’ve… never heard of such a vesting schedule. Doesn’t everyone else pretty much do 25%/year ?

        • 1984@lemmy.today
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          1 month ago

          Amazon is super stressful and I guess a lot of people quit the first few years. Maybe the 40% is to motivate them to stay for more hellish years.

          I’m very happy not to work at Amazon.

          • jaybone@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            1 month ago

            Oh I get why they do it. I’m just surprised they can get away with it. Also they pay pretty damn well so I guess that helps.

        • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          1 month ago

          It’s precisely because their working standards are absolutely absurd and unsustainable, so a LOT of people bail before full vesting. AMZN HR intentionally structures the vesting schedule like this because they have numbers to prove it works out in the company’s favor.

    • blady_blah@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      ·
      1 month ago

      This isn’t what they want to happen. They know it will happen, but this isn’t the goal or objective.

      Amazon is a big boy company, if they want to cut staff, they’ll cut staff. The problem with cutting staff this way, is that they don’t get to decide who they’re cutting. They don’t want to cut talented employees at random, they want to pick the low performers and let them go. This is kind of the opposite of that.

      The higher skilled the employee is, the more likely they are to have been hired remote, and to feel they can find another job also. That means they’re effectively shooting themselves in the foot and getting rid of some of their talented employees for the benefit of bringing people into the office.

      There has been a swing in the business opinion that work from home isn’t as efficient. This is basically the higher-ups falling in line with that opinion.

      • BallsandBayonets@lemmings.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        19
        ·
        edit-2
        1 month ago

        I think they do actually want to cut the high skilled talent. High skill means high pay, and now that they’ve achieved market dominance in pretty much every industry they’ve stuck their penis into they don’t need talent. Lower skilled, and therefore lower paid, employees can do just good enough to keep everything from burning down just long enough for the C-suite to get their bonuses and cash out. After that, who cares, they’re on to their next grift.

      • 0x0@programming.dev
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        1 month ago

        There has been a swing in the business opinion

        Depends on where you read that info, it tends to be 50/50 pro/against really.

        • orclev@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          ·
          1 month ago

          Yeah it’s 50/50 because the executives really don’t like it, but the actual data supports remote work being far more efficient. They’re working really hard to cook the books to make it look like the opposite to appease the execs but they can only do so much. Give them a few more years to cherry-pick data and bury inconvenient results and they’ll be back to the same bullshit that justified productivity destroying (but cheap) choices like hot desking and open plan offices.

    • Brewchin@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      1 month ago

      To add to what others have replied, Amazon have an institutional belief that everyone who makes it through the Loop is better than 50% of existing staff.

      It could be post-hoc rationalising of back-loaded share vesting, hire-to-fire, and their other many practices, but that’s the position. With that kind of thinking, it makes this behaviour, including it’s consequences, a no-brainer win:win to them.

    • jonne@infosec.pub
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      102
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 month ago

      It’s like reverse stack ranking. They’ll be left with the people that couldn’t find another job.

        • Spacehooks@reddthat.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          26
          ·
          1 month ago

          That’s literally what we all do in office. Just sit ans chat. It’s country club. Productivity went up during covid.

          • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            12
            ·
            1 month ago

            Yup, I waste way more time in the office than at home, and I waste plenty of time at home. Also, the time I don’t waste is more productive at home than in the office.

            I still value going to the office, but doing it everyday would just kill my soul. I need some time to myself to get stuff done.

            • Spacehooks@reddthat.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              8
              ·
              1 month ago

              I love being able to fold laundry or go on elliptical during calls. Plus the extra sleep and no commute means im waaay friendlier in calls. Everyone wins.

    • kameecoding@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      39
      ·
      1 month ago

      Yep this has been the modus operandi for businesses who want to reduce workforce without having to pay for layoffs.

    • Stupidmanager@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      31
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 month ago

      Like many companies, they overhired in the last 4 years. Some of these people are due years of severance (my offer listed 2months for every year after 1 year), not to mention the vested stocks and other bonuses granted during this insane hot hire period.

      So how do you remove people not loyal to the company? The most hated mandate ever. Amazon is a company that doesn’t need people in the office. This is nothing more than screwing people over.

      • foofy@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        1 month ago

        No rank and file US-based employees at Amazon are getting years of severance. They don’t do that.

        • Stupidmanager@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          1 month ago

          Yeah, that was a typo and my experience is limited towards the AWS side which is also facing this issue. But the numbers are there, some people have been at Amazon for a decade, so 20 months (if they had MY package of 2mos per year). Amazon was throwing everything at new hires, because they were making bank on their work.

        • Jrockwar@feddit.uk
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          ·
          1 month ago

          Yes, but they’re making people quit instead. They don’t need to pay severance to employees who quit because of RTO.

        • Stupidmanager@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          ·
          1 month ago

          They are getting severance when terminated, unless for cause. My comment was, this is how they avoid it by forcing people to quit.

    • scarabic@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      13
      ·
      1 month ago

      If Amazon don’t think that remote work is productive, then they don’t think they’re losing anything. I don’t even know how “stealth” this is at all. They must believe that those individuals could be productive, because they are trying to keep them working in office. I’m not sure why anyone thinks a company like Amazon would try to be “stealth” about a layoff anyway. They don’t need to.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          1 month ago

          And returning to the office probably doesn’t count as an unreasonable change to the agreement, so you probably won’t win if you sue, and the unemployment office probably won’t help.

          So yeah, sucks all around.

          • BalooWasWahoo@links.hackliberty.org
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            1 month ago

            It definitely counts as an unreasonable change. If you quietly accept it, or quit due to it, you won’t get the help. If you set things up in your favor by replying to the mandate with language along the lines of ‘such a significant change to working conditions requires a renegotiation of my contract’ then you’re placing yourself in a good position to say that you were constructively dismissed, not that you quit.

            A change from working wherever you are (which could be hours away if you were full remote) to the office is just as significant as being moved from one metropolis to another.

            • conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 month ago

              If you were hired as remote you have a pretty strong case for constructive dismissal.

              I think you’re going to have an uphill battle if you were hired to work in a building and they allowed work from home due to a pandemic. I don’t think being slow getting back to the office is going to win you your case.

              • nexas_XIII@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                1 month ago

                I feel like being remote for 4 years is no longer about the pandemic. It’s become a new standard and by showing financial harm by coming into the office I feel you might have a better case. Example being car insurance. My insurance went down as my car is now a “personal vehicle” vs a “commuter car”

                • conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 month ago

                  The pandemic was very clearly the initiator.

                  Being conservative about forcing people back (because most have wanted people back long before now) doesn’t change anything legally. You were hired for an in person job, they were forced to have you work from home by actual government orders, and they moved slowly on forcing you back because it was an extended period of time where there was an actual meaningful health risk to a big enough portion of employees.