The mods of all the major communities there remove comments criticism Hexbear and usually follow it up with a ban. It’s absolutely clear what is happening and it shouldn’t be allowed to continue.
Welcome to federation, where basically every instance is a proxy to all others.
Btw you are also free to block any instance yourself.
Unfortunately blocking an instance only blocks posts on that instance, not users from it, which is the main issue people have with those instances.
Yeah it’s a very common misconception, I find it weird that people are still having it though when 0.19 is widely available.
Maybe they’re just saying it as a way to be dismissive of the issue, this kind of stuff happens often when people report or call to attention malicious instances or malicious users.
Honestly I think it’s just people that haven’t thought very deeply about the nature of communities they’re supporting.
nor how letting a large, poorly moderated instance run wild can negatively affect discourse on the entire platform. Before Hexbear was defed’d on lemmy.ca, Lemmy was damn near unusable on many threads because of the spam and trolling. Blocking them doesn’t stop them from bothering those who haven’t and it affects the platform as a whole.
Blocking is not a real solution, it is putting a blanket over the problem and pretending it went away. People who suggest you do that are suggesting you enable bad faith actors by ignoring their behavior, as opposed to reporting it and/or making others aware so they can report it. We all need to work better to make the platform and spaces on it better, if no one works at it, nothing gets better.
Exactly! Letting problematic instances poison the well leads to a net negative to the platform.
My unpopular opinion: Federating with everyone by default is not sustainable.
It’s inevitable that the lemmyverse will shatter, and everyone will be better for it.
Instances will develop their own policies around moderation and behaviour, and federate with other instances with compatible policies.
Basically, federation only works if everyone is acting in good faith. It wouldn’t take much for a single entity acting in bad faith to fuck the entire fediverse presently.
Presently admits are blacklisting the bad faith instances. That’s going to change so admins whitelist compatible instances.
I use Connect for Android, and when I block an instance it blocks the users too. Their comments are still here, but sort of spoiler tagged.
Yes but surely you can understand that even votes from these poorly moderated instances are distorting the discourse elsewhere in the lemmyverse.
Just because you can’t see it does not mean the problem is solved.
So we wanna defederate to steer votes in a certain way? Worrying so much about votes is such redditor behavior.
I would challenge you to think about how votes can influence the culture of a community.
You’re correct in that worrying about how many upvotes you can accumulate is very reddit.
I’m not really talking about karma accumulation, but rather the way votes can influence visibility of comments. When done methodically, this promotes some ideas over others, and presents an illusion that “everyone else thinks so”. This is a very, very powerful way to influence a community.
We are hard wired to absorb the opinions of those around us. Sure you can disagree with other group members, but even that is an acknowledgement that the alternative perspective you’re disagreeing with is a popular one.
You could absolutely influence people’s opinions on lemmy just with a hacked instance that manipulated votes on comments by just a few dozen points.
You make valid points. Apologies for the Reddit accusation.
But the one thing that comes to mind is that this kind of Communist, like in lemmy.ml, is not big enough to cause this sway.
Sure, the instance is massive, but most users don’t hold those same beliefs. Most people go to it as the “default” instance. So I really don’t think they have the numbers to cause this issue.
Sure. This thread is talking about lemmy.ml, but I’m talking about the current state of the lemmyverse.
I’ve posted this elsewhere in this thread but my unpopular opinion is that federation by default is not sustainable.
Presently admins federate with everyone and blacklist those which are problematic.
It’s inevitable that in the near future someone with a rudimentary understanding of hosting will be able to spin up a dozen instances, each with a few thousand bot accounts, intent on upvoting every “genocide Joe biden” comment.
The fediverse will shatter. Admins will realise they need policies to guide their own moderation, and acknowledge that they can only federate with specific instances with compatible moderation.
So instead of blacklisting bad instances, you need to change to whitelisting good ones.
Btw you are also free to block any instance yourself.
Not how the instance blocking feature works. it’s a common misconception because people don’t read the docs and just assume it does what they think it does. From the News Section on Join-Lemmy:
Users can now block instances. Similar to community blocks, it means that any posts from communities which are hosted on that instance are hidden. However the block doesn’t affect users from the blocked instance, their posts and comments can still be seen normally in other communities.
It’s not an alternative or replacement to defederation, not even close. I’m really surprised this misconception still persists even after widespread adoption of 0.19.x across the Lemmy network.
So you don’t care about the instance you want to ban all the users from there. That’s quite open minded and tolerant!
Honestly, I’m so weary of being open minded and tolerant. I just want to look at linux memes in peace.
Paradox of tolerance, if you tolerate the intolerant then tolerance quickly goes extinct.
Can we stop this please?
It was never that revolutionary in the first place - “if you allow assholes to be assholes everything will go to shit” - I’m shocked.
… but now, after seeing it as a reply to every second comment on lemmy, it’s just spam and doesn’t inform discussion in any way.
You can block instances for yourself instead of blocking them for everyone.
Good lord. It’s as though you haven’t bothered to read any other comments in this thread.
Blocking instances yourself doesn’t solve anything. At all.
Of course they didn’t, they’re just reactively replying to comments that trigger them hoping that the people they reply to also get triggered. They are a troll.
Ah! That makes sense. I was on world news of Lemmy.ml and the comments where full of nutters and/or troll farms. It was like gote/gout (or whatever it was called), another Reddit alternative I’ve tried that seamed to fill Nazis kicked off Reddit. I unsubscribed and blocked.
Edit: Voat! That was it.
I think you’re thinking of Voat.
Yes! That’s the one!
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This comment is brought to you by the Hexbear outreach program.
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> Avoids Hexbear
> Openly derides people who have negative opinions about Hexbear
Maybe try being consistent and people won’t think you’re fake.
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Do you think comments like these are swaying public opinion in your favor?
Nah, it’s just funny. 😝
Lmao. Welcome to lemmy.world, where anyone left of center or who mildly criticizes the instance is a Russian bot or a secret hexbear user. Y’all have no clue how ridiculous you sound. The whole instance is like a giant neolib /r/politics circle jerk
If they weren’t such weasels and actually agrued back rather than just ban people like the spineless dimwit twats they are, I’d say the argument that they are easily filtered holds. But given they are just looking to propagate their shilling for Russia, trump (and they definitely do this) etc… fuck em!
Even outside of their space, when they “argue” it had generally been posting giant, random images that had little to no context followed by walls of emojis. Which is why my blocklist is mostly Hexbear users.
Please find a single example of Hexbear supporting Trump. Attacking Biden does not count
Jesus fucking christ, this has comments talking about trump living rent free in muh libs heads
https://hexbear.net/post/2090983
You’re the same pack of fucking incels mixed in with the same russian shilling from 2016, that post was from an hour ago, took me seconds to find it
Are you incapable of reading into nuance at all? How could you possibly…
I really can’t be bothered going and finding all the pretty fucking obvious examples of you shitheads either apologising or glorifying putin, or coming out with pure incel stuff, or platforming trump. Which makes sense given it seems to be the same campaign as before, and its pretty fucking obvious at this point, very sloppy… I’ve clearly hit a nerve lol. It’d be great if you all could change track at this point and stop platforming that odious cunt, don’t worry I know there is unfortunately no option to stop shilling putin…
They asked for a single example. Find just one, a single one.
Assuming you’re not paid or being forced to do this, you must know you’re being used as a tool for the fascists you claim to despise. Platforming trump is support and I see there is no mention of the direct relationship to Putin in all the very loud refuting of this support…
I thought the Mueller report exonerated him. anyway it’s not as though anybody’s supporting Russia or Putin or Trump in these comments. we just know the Democrats are bad and aren’t afraid to say it.
If you can’t see how hexbear is mirroring trump rhetoric almost word for word then I don’t know what to tell you.
They’re the new The_Donald, only they’re not even self aware enough to know they’re the bad guys.
I’m not sure which is worse.
Are they mirroring trump rhetoric. Or is trump regurgitating talking points from his fascist idol. And ML are just so cultish, indoctrinated, anti West that they couldn’t not attack the west. Even if Russia is more clearly in the wrong on this issue.
It’s more likely than them actually supporting trump. Honestly I think the only possible way you could say they support trump. Is that they understand that trump would destroy Western society and they approve of that. No matter who gets hurt in the process. Well actually when it comes to leninists it’s all about hurting people in the process really.
Yes, leftists famously LOVE Donald Trump 🤣
This is the most Reddit radlib shit I’ve seen over here yet. Grow up my dude
Lemmy.ml are tankies first and foremost. They’ll defend anything that Russia/China thinks is good.
Calling them leftists is an insult to the rest of us who aren’t authie chuds.
Hexbears arent lefties. They are hiding behind acting like they are lefties while at the same time sucking up to the most fascist regimes on earth.
Pretty damn rich coming from lemmy.world where you ban people for criticizing Biden
All you dummies do when you ban and defederate is push more and more people into extremist communities.
I’ve been banned for defending Biden, kiddo…. Find a new bit, the one you’re using is old.
Wait were you banned for defending Biden, or were you banned “for merely suggesting that responding to someone with memes is childish and immature,” or both?
And which of your user accounts were these? Because it wasn’t this one.
Two different things, Detective Kiddo. Sometimes, both can be true.
Wasn’t calling someone “kiddo” how you got this account temp banned from !politics@lemmy.world last time?
At some time we have to deal with this.
Keep in mind that we like Lemmy for being a federated platform.
I don’t think there is enough awareness at this point. And the way we do it here, it has to come from the community. The people and mods have to become aware and make a decision to move their participation and the communities to another instance. I don’t see a way around that. This will take some time, patience and effort.
I’ve started to do my part and unsubscribed from !Fediverse@lemmy.ml I’m now going through my list of subscriptions and find alternatives to other communities, so I don’t contribute to the lemmy.ml communities being the larges ones any more.
[Edit: Wow. I’ve replaced 32 communities, some with substantially better alternatives, and I’ve found a few nice additional ones in the process. I still need recommendations for alternatives to: “Peertube”, “Libre Culture”, “Crawling the IndieWeb”, “datahoarder”, “Linux Phones”, “postmarketOS”, “osu!”. I’m glad I did this. I think this is the way to make a change as a simple user. And now I’m not part of the problem anymore. It took me the better part of an hour, though.]
I’m just blocking the entire lemmy.ml instance. I’ve seen consistent problems from them, and nothing worth staying connected with.
Wish I could help you find alternative communities but I’m not sure about the ones you mentioned. They’ll grow over time if Lemmy survives.
Thx. I found the most important communities to me. I’m glad most of them have an alternative and those are going strong. I can live with losing a few minor ones.
Concerning “blocking them”: I’m not sure. I was a strong opponent to the whole defederation and “safe-space” thing last year. Where especially beehaw.org decided to do their own thing and rigorously defederate, often preemptively and without talking to people. I think such behaviour splits the community and disconnects people. I really don’t like all the drama, falling out with each other and particularism. And I think all the feud is a sure way to kill the platform before it even took off with the general public… Honestly, I’m slowly changing my mind. Give me some more time.
I agree with your general point but
splits the community and disconnects people
They aren’t people like you and I. They’re paid shills at best and KremlinGPT at worst. I think to survive and flourish as a platform Lemmy will have to aggressively fight back against authoritarian disinformation. As it stands, I won’t even admit to anyone that I use it because it so full of propaganda.
“Everyone I disagree with is a shill and all ideas I disagree with are propaganda”
Mocking me instead of responding to what I said is a good indicator you have no reasonable response.
It is a bit more nuanced than that. There are normal people there, too. It’s been one of the largest instances when the Reddit exodus happened. Some of the users chose the largest and the ‘official’ instance. And some of them are still there.
But lemmy.ml is operated by the same people who also run lemmygrad, some moderators seem to be the same. And unfortunately the whole Lemmy software platform is developed by “those” people.
I don’t mind leaning a good amount to the left. I think a few socialist values would advance society and economy. Especially in places like the USA. And I’ve been called a communist for that. But being a tankie is beyond my comprehension. Why would anyone like Putin, defend the CCP and what they do to people. And I’m not overly bothered with the left vs right. It’s the constant yelling, being super argumentative, doing brigading and spreading misinformation.
I think things are changing. I’m paying attention now to the usernames in the comments. And lemmy.ml isn’t the dominating place anymore. Most of the usernames I see come from a broad range of instances. And that’s a good thing. It’s still a home to some big communities which needs to change, too. And I’m also waiting for a new software to come along, written by different people with a different motivation and agenda. In my opinion that’s one of the next steps to emancipate ourselves. I mean if you don’t like lemmy.ml you probably don’t like the people making the decisions there. Which unfortunately are the same people who also write all of the Lemmy software. And their software development decisions reflect the same attitude. But also that’s going to change. A few people are working on good alternatives which strive to listen to the community, invite people to participate and also finally implement proper moderation tools and a few other tweaks to foster good behaviour.
I like Lemmy. But this platform had a hard time from the start. And it’s still struggling. Mixing technological difficulties and innate problems of growing a community with drama, bad decisions, waywardness and friction within the community on many different levels is just stupid and unnecessary. But I’m still waiting for progress and a bright future. I think Federation is one of the best approaches with some potential to make that happen.
I think the solid technological basis is what I’m a bit more concerned as of now. But apart from that I agree that it is us, the community who sets the tone and we decide who we want to listen to, nice people or people with behaviour disorders and an attitude. And it’s a vicious circle. At some point a platform has an image and is bound to tip and attract more like-minded people and less normal ones. And the dynamics are there and we need to actively fight for a nice place.
Well said, I agree with all of that. I’m considerably more to the left as well, that’s part of why I hate lemmy.ml, because they’re preventing actual good growth and movement in that direction.
Hopefully Mbin or some other one of the new forks/platforms takes off soon. I’m ready to move if necessary, I love the idea of a healthy Fediverse and I hope some day I can recommend it to friends instead of being too embarrassed to admit I use it because of all the propaganda.
you can leave literally any time. there are dozens of instances, you don’t need to stay on flagship instances. you might like truth.social, which runs mastodon’s software, or gab.com which does the same.
Thank you very much, you can leave too.
Seems like they werent such big fans of your post. It has been removed from their instance and your account was banned. Very interesting 🤔
You’ve got things backwards: OP was banned first and then posted this drama in reaction. The post isn’t visible on lemmy.ml because OP is banned.
I don’t know about that. I do see in their modlog that he has been banned multiple times. Allthough i cant find the exact time and date of his newest ban, it corresponds with the creation of this post, aka. 1 day ago from making this comment. But yeah, there is a possebility that he was banned right before or something like that 🤔
Checking the modlog, it looks like a moderator gave me a site ban for 14 days and a ban from the community where I made my comment for 30 days. I find it interesting that it lists my site ban as being from a moderator and not an admin.
They manipulated the modlog on their version to show all actions as coming from mod and not from admin, likely in attempt to hide how much is by admins as opposed to mods.Edit: also appears they’re manipulating the data itself because actions from lemmy.world’s mods and admins are showing up under Nutomic’s page so definitely something screwy going on there.ModIdfield isn’t enabled on these instances, it needs to be specifically enabled for these searches to work properly, thanks @Rooki@lemmy.worldI think you are confused, but that obviously doesn’t keep you from throwing out wild accusations. How is what you linked Nutomic’s page? Because it’s lemmy.ml? I really feel for Dessalines and Nutomic with all the shit they have to deal with.
ml and Hexbear definitely don’t have the same users. Their comments look very different. Hexbear is far more extreme in every way.
Hexbear is mostly just trolls in my experience. They like to brigade any discussion involving Russia, China, Ukraine, etc.
Lemmy.ml is full of tankies that will also go out of their way to defend Russia and China but they aren’t just blatant trolls which is the difference.
Having controversial opinions isn’t the problem, trolling and brigading are
This is also my take. Hex will troll you but ML folks actually think that you are an evil person because you don’t agree with them on some minor point.
Rules in question stated as a reason for removing the comments and temporary ban:
- No bigotry - including racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia. Code of Conduct.
- Be respectful, especially when disagreeing. Everyone should feel welcome here.
People can make their own conclusions.
Since when is calling out tankies racism, sexism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, or xenophobia?
bigotry
ˈbɪɡətri
noun
obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.If the person in question went after them simply because they are part of the group called ‘tankies’, the first rule was broken.
If the person in question was the first to throw out insults, the second rule was broken.If however the opposing group initiated the conflict, broke the same rules and was not punished, then the complaint here is fair and should be pursued in order to prevent an escalation of abuse.
…
The nasty thing about bigotry is that by definition, it doesn’t matter which group is being discriminated against. It accepts all discrimination under its label.
We generally don’t consider something to be bigotry if it is directed at an ideology or behavior that people can control. Ability or disability, gender, religious/ethnic background, race, age, nationality, etc. are all factors that are beyond an individual’s control.
Hate to Godwin this thread, but does that mean you can’t attack Nazis as a group on lemmy.ml?
Of course not. They apply their rules subjectively.
For instance I got rule 1’d for saying “Fuck China” but I bet you, you wouldn’t get banned for saying “Fuck America” or “Fuck Israel” (fuck ‘em all imo).
No. Defederating at the drop of a hat is stupid. You don’t like it? Then you, YOU, block the instance.
I don’t like defederation, but these clowns are asking for it for a very long time.
Just don’t join the communities you don’t like.
Would you apply that logic to a neonazi white supremacist community on Lemmy.world?
Can you give us the name? I think just spreading FUD isn’t really helping and I also can’t do anything about it without more information.
It’s a hypothetical situation.
Would you apply that logic to a neonazi white supremacist community on Lemmy.world?
Okay, so you’re fine with sharing spaces with neonazi white supremacists.
you’re fine with sharing spaces with neonazi white supremacists.
I’m not sharing a space with them when I block them, duh.
No, you’re putting a blanket over them and pretending they’re not there any more.
They would still be active on the site and harming the community at large, you personally would just be blind to it.
Have your instance block individual communities and users then.
Blocking entire big-tent instances is “harming the community at large”.
PS: Have fun on my block list. I’m not discussing any longer with someone who says I’m a neonazi sympathizer.
Okay so how do we report lemmy.ml?
No, you’re putting a blanket over them and pretending they’re not there any more.
Isn’t defederation the same thing? Users won’t disappear (and they can also create accounts elsewhere…).
Blocked users or communities can still interact on the wider site and with you, you just won’t see them.
Defederated instances are completely barred from doing so.
It’s the difference between plugging your ears when someone else speaks vs locking them out of your house and not letting them get close.
I would indeed say:
- yep, definitely don’t join it
- neonazi white supremacist is not the same as Communist
Tankie is not the same as communist either. Tankies are genocide denial, authoritarian supporters, who are no better than Nazis.
What’s funny is that Lemmy.ml users aren’t seeing this neolib nonsense because OP is temp. banned.
“Anything that isn’t praising shitheaps like Stalin, Mao, or the Kims is neolib nonsense”
I predicted this when lemmygrad got defederated. I said that neoliberals were gonna identify some other instance as the “tankie instance” and start campaigning to defederate from it.
Funny because it’s always been those 3 instances this whole time, nothing ever changed in our dislike for them.
Uh huh. Once you’ve succeeded in defederating from .ml, in a few months, there will be another instance that neoliberals decide is full of tankies, and it will have always been those 4 instances.
I called it last time and neoliberals don’t change their desire to silence people to their left.
Sure mate. And tankies are not to my left in the slightest.
And .ml is only the “tankie instance” because neoliberals found “tankie” to be an effective cudgel to silence people to their left. They don’t have to be tankies to get the label.
Right, but I am AnCom call them tankies because they support the USSR & China.
You can hate neolibs all you want, that doesn’t change the fact that CTH, Lemmygrad, & .ml are the tankie trifecta.
CTH? I thought Hexbear was the first “tankie instance”
See you when you guys get the urge to karen another instance.
Hexbear is CTH.
When reddit banned CTH, some of the community went and made Hexbear, most of us stayed on reddit and due to the small userbase it become an incestral breeding ground that removed all but the most hardcore tankies and authiechuds leading to the shitheap it is today.
Many people are saying
Lemmy.ml is not only a massive instance, it is also the original and core lemmy instance. Widespread defederation would be like a nuclear bomb to the lemmy platform.
Some people have developed alternatives in the threadiverse like kbin or piefed. If lemmy.ml is truly too far aflight for users to tolerate, it seems likely that alternative platforms will fill in the gaps. For now, lemmy is still a thriving and growing platform.
It’s not thriving. The devs are prickly arseholes, which is anathema to building a cooperative, volunteer-driven dev community and the tone of many mainstream communities is obnoxiously set by tankies amd their alts.
Probably one of if not the biggest reasons people had poor experiences on Lemmy before was because they signed up on Lemmy.ml
LOL this was me. I thought it would be cool to be on the DEV instance and didn’t know that it had a whole lot of other baggage on it.
