It makes sense. He’s actually been competent, which not many (certainly not I) quite expected, but the media hasn’t reported a lot of his successes, which have been unusually deployed and quite complex to begin with. People don’t understand it. Maybe they’ll vote for him anyway, but it’s not assured, somehow even with Trump on the other side again.
e.g.how he blocked the railway strike at Christmas to save “the economy” first and foremost at the workers expense, but then kept working afterwards to help get most if not all of their demands met (I’m not sure if they got any sick leave though). Right or wrong, in the past that would have been hailed as a “huge success”, but instead we barely heard about it.
Likewise with Gaza he has tried to toe the line - we technically have obligations to fulfill there, but does genocide change that, and if so what is the process by which to do that, and is he engaging in that, or doesn’t Israel have a veto anyway, so what else is he doing that we might want done?
We have depended upon our media so much, to tell us not just what happened but what it means and how to feel about it all. So with it being bought out now by billionaires… it is like our fourth branch of government has become as unreliable as Congress and the Supreme Court.
Not just the media, but perhaps worse, unverified strangers on the Internet though social media. The biggest thing that pisses me off is every time I the lesser of two evils argument spouted of paired with Biden’s handing of something that 100% should fall in the domain of Congress to solve. So may things that historically have been attributed to the President were ultimately created and decided on by Congress and the public attributes way more power to the President than they actually have because of it.
If we want actual support to Gaza we need to push our congressional members to provide that support. Which is laughable because congress can’t even pass a bill that had bipartisan support because half of one floor bends knee to the will of a private citizen. Biden keeps having to overreach his office with executive orders and policies that aren’t backed by law and as such are highly transient and subject to constitutional review allowing them too be thrown out, as well as peace time commander-in-chief powers to do things like supply airdrops or back door old equipment sales to their other countries to affected groups.
The difference between Ukraine and Gaza is that unlike Ukraine, have does not have a unified Palestinian force that the US can safely supply arms to (HAMAS has actively proven that they are not the good guys) and that we’re legally obligated to supply arms to Israel, which we are not to Russia. Biden can only sit loudly at Israel stating that genocide is bad threaten that this could lead to a withdrawal of US support, but he can’t actually withdraw US support. Congress needs to provide a bill for him to sign that does that.
On a side note… I’m fairly convinced that a good chunk of the rhetoric spouted to not vote for Biden likely originated from foreign sources to plant the Idea in people’s minds and get them to repeat it everywhere because on the surface it feels right. The vote any vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump rhetoric probably exists for similar reasons, mostly to help reinforce the thought that both sides are the same because it’s quite easily proven not true and likely increases the odds that someone it’s used to convince to vote for Biden ultimately ends up either withholding their vote in protest or voting for someone else out of spite.
Esp on congressional v presidential power/responsibility. I must admit im rather guilty of this, too. Its easy to hate on our cultures authoritarian tendencies that prevade in the stupidest fucking places, and yet i still consistently think, "wheres that marjuana legislation, Joe? Why arent you passing executive orders to prevent the intellectually challeneged baboon heading Texas from busing his responsibilities to my state? Or at least offer more executive support in handling the influx of ppl? Maybe something to give out more work visas, no?
Reading this tho reminds me, most all of that is legislative tasks. weve just all been brainwashed by years of executive encroachment to where the broken parts of our system behave extra broken.
Keep fighting the good fight. Your words hit hard.
If we all (very justifiably) believe that Trump would truly become a dictator if he wins in November, then it is clear that the president has the ability to wield tremendous power to radically remake our system.
Which means that Bidens failure to act on any given issue is a choice.
If Trump’s administration would radically reshape the country through breaking norms, then Biden could do the same, but for beneficial purposes. We should ask ourselves why he is prioritizing procedural norms over real improvements to Americans standards of living. Why do we accept that The Rules are more important than our lives?
sigh being capable of wielding that much power is not supposed to happen is the point. Donnie dipshits potential to do so is enabled by the same problems that americans have been avoiding facing for years. The answer is not opening the door for the next in line to radically reshape everything they dont like, thats beyond inefficient. Instead, lets avoid opening up such a possibility that is only available to dump bc he wields a cult of personality made up of dinosaurs.
If u would like to pursue direct action rather than wait on electoral politics to change ur life, then i think u will find those are much more easily pursued in Biden’s America v. Trumps. Enough so that taking the small amount of time itd take to vote for Status Quo Joe is worth it. Similarly, your local down ballot choices are also worth checking off based on who is best or least shit. We can effect greater change long term when ur local electoral politics are, for example, funding ur local schools sufficiently.
This sort of communication is incredibly unlikable and causes the median viewer to deeply dislike you and your positions. Which is perfect if you’re trying to confirm to Americans that Democrats are elitists who don’t care about normal people. If, however, you’re trying to persuade people and win elections then you need an immediate attitude adjustment or you need to refrain from such discussions if you are unable to be likable
wielding that much power is not supposed to happen is the point.
Said a different way, drastically improving living standards for Americans is not supposed to happen, quickly or otherwise. Which is deeply unsatisfying and is a perfect argument for a 3rd party candidate
Americans have a consumer mentality. They have no interest in longterm solutions. They want their, very significant, societal problems to be fixed correctly and immediately. If Democrats refuse to use the full power of the federal government to achieve that expeditiously then Americans will vote for someone who claims that they will.
Being smug will not change any of that. We don’t live in the world you want to live in, we live in the real world. If you want to persuade literally anyone then maybe it is more effective for you to behave accordingly
Whos being smug here? Youve boiled down everything i said to absolute nothing, all while ignoring the central thesis that aimless bitching about it solves nothing, and that if ur going to do something about it, then u might as well ensure that the maximum amount of people are capable of living bearable lives under the current regime. Youve also completely ignored my call for unity across the left leaning spectrum. You do all this not because im “smug,” but bc, in this instance, u are a bad faith actor looking to be contentious.
Eta: and calling the problem consumerism is merely blaming the victims.
You’re intentionally (or worse, unintentionally) being incredibly unlikable. RFK and the Green Party could use more online “activists” like yourself
Please stop trying to do anything to help the Democratic Party. Your personality is absolute poison for them winning Michigan Wisconsin, Arizona, and Pennsylvania.
Biden’s handing of something that 100% should fall in the domain of Congress to solve. So may things that historically have been attributed to the President were ultimately created and decided on by Congress and the public attributes way more power to the President than they actually have because of it.
But the public is right to do this, particularly regarding international wars like Ukraine and Gaza. The United States has not declared war via Congress since 1942. Yet clearly we have fought plenty of wars since then solely under the command and authorization of the presidency alone. Which means there is 80+ years of precedence of creating an imperial presidency that authorizes Biden to act against both Russia and Israel. He is choosing not to avail himself of the precedent. And genocide is the result.
we’re legally obligated to supply arms to Israel,
Israel is legally obligated not to engage in collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Yet, they are doing those acts anyway. The Constitution requires Congress to declare war. Yet Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the War on Terror, Libya, Syria, and Ukraine/Gaza demonstrate that is apparently an illusory Constitutional requirement. Laws are meaningless if there is no enforcement mechanism.
I’m fairly convinced that a good chunk of the rhetoric spouted to not vote for Biden likely originated from foreign sources to plant the Idea in people’s minds
This is undoubtedly true. And it is a sad reflection of the weakness of our system, our historical actions, and the intellectual capabilities of our citizenry that it is as highly effective as it is. Trump will destroy The West if he is elected in November. And plenty of Americans don’t have a problem with that because they don’t understand what it means. Which is a consequence of neoliberal privatization and deregulation of all social programs, including public education.
As Malcolm X said, this is Chickens Coming Home to Roost. And, unfortunately for us who live in the United States today, an innumerable number of Chickens are coming home to roost in our very near future. I wish I had been born in Denmark or Norway - at least their social democratic safety nets would allow my community to thrive as the world burns around us
I wish I had been born in Denmark or Norway - at least their social democratic safety nets would allow my community to thrive as the world burns around us
not to be mean but the mind does age it does not magically stop because your name is Biden he has reached that age
he told those rail workers they could not strike or they would lose retirement and shit
he threatened them with their livelihoods fuck that old crony he promised to raise the minimum wage and fight for us workers
he hasn’t quite the opposite
Silent Genocide Joe and Prosecutor Kamala Harris are not America’s saviors neither is Trump
just older people refusing to let a younger generation take the reins while cashing checks from the corporations same as Trump and making sure the younger people are disenfranchised enough to not to take a stand
fucking sick either candidate get any support with the suffering and misery they have wrought
I can’t disagree with the age argument, these dinosaurs need to step aside and let the world change.
I do want to know what exactly Biden has genocided. The two groups in this world who are driving genocides are Putin’s and Netanyahu’s regimes. Biden has no control over them, and the only group that could enact a foreign policy to do anything here in the US is Congress. So if anyone is complicit in that, it’s our “Currently Genocidal by Inaction Congress.”
I get it though, doesn’t roll as nicely off the tongue.
[Edit: a poster below pointed out that my joke was bad and I should feel bad. ]
Camilla was a poor choice at vp no matter how you swing it given the current progressive opinion on police.
He could stop sending a new shipment of the very weapons used to commit genocide with every day and a half.
It might not stop it immediately, but it would at least make it more difficult for Netanyahu’s fascist apartheid regime to keep blowing the shit out of innocent civilians if they have to look elsewhere for the bombs to do so with.
Plus, there’s hardly any way to be more clearly an accomplice to war crimes than insisting on sending weapons to be used to commit war crimes regardless of congressional approval.
First of all, no he isn’t. In fact, it’s illegal for the US government to supply arms that might be used in the commission of war crimes. In this case there’s not even any doubt.
As for the GOP, they’ve already demonstrated that whether or not they try to impeach has nothing to do with reality. Even if they DID somehow manage to make impeachment stick by a one-vote majority, there’s literally no risk that 2/3 of the senate will vote to convict, so that’s not anything remotely resembling a valid excuse to keep contributing to a genocide either.
He actually is in the case that the initial arms shipment was sent, Israel was attacked by Hamas and he had to respond by sending aid. He has gone on record stating that the current war crimes Israel has been committing raise question of the legality of providing further support.
Obviously still remains to be seen if anything will actually come of that though. Words are cheap.
There’s no congressional approval needed as he is driven by treaty to provide arms, if anything he is compelled by Congress to send arms as long as Israel is at war as a US ally due to NATO.
He’s trying to make the argument that Israel committing genocide with those arms is reason to withdraw support, unfortunately the US government moves at a glacial pace on it’s best day to the point that the US military is actually somehow faster. Given the number of Democrats that do support Israel, its entirely realistic that he could get successfully impeached if he failed to comply.
Anyway… Thanks for the civil debate but work is starting so I need to go, I’ll read your next message bit I probably won’t have time to reply.
Read Kegan & Lahey’s “Immunity to Change” book, on people’s unconscious-mind’s mechanism for fighting-off growing-up.
Then let it percolate in your mind for a few decades, while you watch humankind’s process.
I’d now make a law requiring that the top people be Kegan5 unconscious-mind-development ( he calls 3, 4, & 5 something like “socially-based sentience”, rooted in needing to feel liked, “self-authoring” mind, which I call Bulling-BOSS mode, it’s an obnoxious mode male-culture values because it’s so “alpha”.
Youtube’s Wranglerstar & Veritasium are both poster-people for it, 1 in working-class Kegan4 the other in middle/upper-middle-class Kegan4, & both displaying Kegan4’s obnoxiousness.
I spent most of my adult life in it, and wish I could just retroactively slice most of my life from Universe.
“systems-of-systems” mode is Kegan5. )
it’s consistent that if you field a Kegan3 person to be your negotiation-representative, and the other side fields a Kegan4, you’re run-over.
If you field a Kegan5 & they field a Kegan4, you’re run-over.
IF they field a Kegan4, THEN you need equal/opposite bullying, in order that the zero-sum-game not beat your side to shit.
However, IF they have the uprightness to field a Kegan5 & you can too, THEN Win-Win becomes possible.
Young-adults, Kegan3’s ( the Kegan3 stage can continue for the entire rest of a person’s life, from post-adolescence to 100yo or more, but it is mentally/psychically a young-adult stage ), cannot accept that evil is real, the way someone mentally-older can.
Kegan3’s are in the absorbing experience into their unconscious-mind, stage.
Kegan4’s are in the pushing meaning out of their unconscious, “authoring” themselves through that unconscious-pushing-out process stage.
Kegan5’s are in the this is true for them, that is true for these other people, the-other is true for me, and this is how it all fits together stage.
I’d not permit any naive Kegan3’s to rule any major operation, nor permit any zero-sum-game-“validity” Kegan4’s to rule anything important.
That book gives people the means of converting fighting-off-growing-up to actually-successfully-growing-up, and so it is worth many life-years or life-decades, to many.
Nobody in the whole world has any reason to accept that my values have any validity in them, though, that is true.
All who hold that there is nounderstanding which should be prerequisite to authority, well they all outnumber me, don’t they?
shrug
This I’ve found tests to be true, however.
( bonus point:
it has been published that the DreamTeam formation is a team-of-7, with 2 who match the Kegan5 mental-development, 2 who match the Kegan4 mental-development, & 3 who match the Kegan3 mental-development.
The Kegan4’s bursting with ideas, but not understanding all the systems-of-systems gotchas, means the team is more likely to be able to innovate,
the Kegan5’s, if they can do it without demolishing the Kegan4’s morale, can ask questions to corner the Kegan4’s into considering all sorts of things they hadn’t, so they prevent lots of stupid mistakes,
& the Kegan3’s are the “glue” which holds the team coherent & harmonious.
I’m mixing multiple sources together, but they really were identifying the same thing, only each was doing-so without some of the other pieces.
New Scientist had an article on The Dream Team, years ago, Chris McGoff’s book “The Primes” is part of it, the Kegan & Lahey book is part of it, some HBR stuff as well, perhaps some stuff from the managers-of-programmers books, what’s her name, Roth? can’t remember…
fit it together, though, and it fits properly: there is a balance which produces working momentum, instead of institutional-mentality, and that working momentum is based on the substance of the minds of the people in the team, and ignoring the unconscious-mind-development stage … is ignoring the BIG part of each person’s iceberg.
It makes sense. He’s actually been competent, which not many (certainly not I) quite expected, but the media hasn’t reported a lot of his successes, which have been unusually deployed and quite complex to begin with. People don’t understand it. Maybe they’ll vote for him anyway, but it’s not assured, somehow even with Trump on the other side again.
e.g.how he blocked the railway strike at Christmas to save “the economy” first and foremost at the workers expense, but then kept working afterwards to help get most if not all of their demands met (I’m not sure if they got any sick leave though). Right or wrong, in the past that would have been hailed as a “huge success”, but instead we barely heard about it.
Likewise with Gaza he has tried to toe the line - we technically have obligations to fulfill there, but does genocide change that, and if so what is the process by which to do that, and is he engaging in that, or doesn’t Israel have a veto anyway, so what else is he doing that we might want done?
We have depended upon our media so much, to tell us not just what happened but what it means and how to feel about it all. So with it being bought out now by billionaires… it is like our fourth branch of government has become as unreliable as Congress and the Supreme Court.
Not just the media, but perhaps worse, unverified strangers on the Internet though social media. The biggest thing that pisses me off is every time I the lesser of two evils argument spouted of paired with Biden’s handing of something that 100% should fall in the domain of Congress to solve. So may things that historically have been attributed to the President were ultimately created and decided on by Congress and the public attributes way more power to the President than they actually have because of it.
If we want actual support to Gaza we need to push our congressional members to provide that support. Which is laughable because congress can’t even pass a bill that had bipartisan support because half of one floor bends knee to the will of a private citizen. Biden keeps having to overreach his office with executive orders and policies that aren’t backed by law and as such are highly transient and subject to constitutional review allowing them too be thrown out, as well as peace time commander-in-chief powers to do things like supply airdrops or back door old equipment sales to their other countries to affected groups.
The difference between Ukraine and Gaza is that unlike Ukraine, have does not have a unified Palestinian force that the US can safely supply arms to (HAMAS has actively proven that they are not the good guys) and that we’re legally obligated to supply arms to Israel, which we are not to Russia. Biden can only sit loudly at Israel stating that genocide is bad threaten that this could lead to a withdrawal of US support, but he can’t actually withdraw US support. Congress needs to provide a bill for him to sign that does that.
On a side note… I’m fairly convinced that a good chunk of the rhetoric spouted to not vote for Biden likely originated from foreign sources to plant the Idea in people’s minds and get them to repeat it everywhere because on the surface it feels right. The vote any vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump rhetoric probably exists for similar reasons, mostly to help reinforce the thought that both sides are the same because it’s quite easily proven not true and likely increases the odds that someone it’s used to convince to vote for Biden ultimately ends up either withholding their vote in protest or voting for someone else out of spite.
Excellent points, truly.
Esp on congressional v presidential power/responsibility. I must admit im rather guilty of this, too. Its easy to hate on our cultures authoritarian tendencies that prevade in the stupidest fucking places, and yet i still consistently think, "wheres that marjuana legislation, Joe? Why arent you passing executive orders to prevent the intellectually challeneged baboon heading Texas from busing his responsibilities to my state? Or at least offer more executive support in handling the influx of ppl? Maybe something to give out more work visas, no?
Reading this tho reminds me, most all of that is legislative tasks. weve just all been brainwashed by years of executive encroachment to where the broken parts of our system behave extra broken.
Keep fighting the good fight. Your words hit hard.
If we all (very justifiably) believe that Trump would truly become a dictator if he wins in November, then it is clear that the president has the ability to wield tremendous power to radically remake our system.
Which means that Bidens failure to act on any given issue is a choice.
If Trump’s administration would radically reshape the country through breaking norms, then Biden could do the same, but for beneficial purposes. We should ask ourselves why he is prioritizing procedural norms over real improvements to Americans standards of living. Why do we accept that The Rules are more important than our lives?
sigh being capable of wielding that much power is not supposed to happen is the point. Donnie dipshits potential to do so is enabled by the same problems that americans have been avoiding facing for years. The answer is not opening the door for the next in line to radically reshape everything they dont like, thats beyond inefficient. Instead, lets avoid opening up such a possibility that is only available to dump bc he wields a cult of personality made up of dinosaurs.
If u would like to pursue direct action rather than wait on electoral politics to change ur life, then i think u will find those are much more easily pursued in Biden’s America v. Trumps. Enough so that taking the small amount of time itd take to vote for Status Quo Joe is worth it. Similarly, your local down ballot choices are also worth checking off based on who is best or least shit. We can effect greater change long term when ur local electoral politics are, for example, funding ur local schools sufficiently.
This sort of communication is incredibly unlikable and causes the median viewer to deeply dislike you and your positions. Which is perfect if you’re trying to confirm to Americans that Democrats are elitists who don’t care about normal people. If, however, you’re trying to persuade people and win elections then you need an immediate attitude adjustment or you need to refrain from such discussions if you are unable to be likable
Said a different way, drastically improving living standards for Americans is not supposed to happen, quickly or otherwise. Which is deeply unsatisfying and is a perfect argument for a 3rd party candidate
Americans have a consumer mentality. They have no interest in longterm solutions. They want their, very significant, societal problems to be fixed correctly and immediately. If Democrats refuse to use the full power of the federal government to achieve that expeditiously then Americans will vote for someone who claims that they will.
Being smug will not change any of that. We don’t live in the world you want to live in, we live in the real world. If you want to persuade literally anyone then maybe it is more effective for you to behave accordingly
Whos being smug here? Youve boiled down everything i said to absolute nothing, all while ignoring the central thesis that aimless bitching about it solves nothing, and that if ur going to do something about it, then u might as well ensure that the maximum amount of people are capable of living bearable lives under the current regime. Youve also completely ignored my call for unity across the left leaning spectrum. You do all this not because im “smug,” but bc, in this instance, u are a bad faith actor looking to be contentious.
Eta: and calling the problem consumerism is merely blaming the victims.
You’re intentionally (or worse, unintentionally) being incredibly unlikable. RFK and the Green Party could use more online “activists” like yourself
Please stop trying to do anything to help the Democratic Party. Your personality is absolute poison for them winning Michigan Wisconsin, Arizona, and Pennsylvania.
But the public is right to do this, particularly regarding international wars like Ukraine and Gaza. The United States has not declared war via Congress since 1942. Yet clearly we have fought plenty of wars since then solely under the command and authorization of the presidency alone. Which means there is 80+ years of precedence of creating an imperial presidency that authorizes Biden to act against both Russia and Israel. He is choosing not to avail himself of the precedent. And genocide is the result.
Israel is legally obligated not to engage in collective punishment, ethnic cleansing, and genocide. Yet, they are doing those acts anyway. The Constitution requires Congress to declare war. Yet Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, the War on Terror, Libya, Syria, and Ukraine/Gaza demonstrate that is apparently an illusory Constitutional requirement. Laws are meaningless if there is no enforcement mechanism.
This is undoubtedly true. And it is a sad reflection of the weakness of our system, our historical actions, and the intellectual capabilities of our citizenry that it is as highly effective as it is. Trump will destroy The West if he is elected in November. And plenty of Americans don’t have a problem with that because they don’t understand what it means. Which is a consequence of neoliberal privatization and deregulation of all social programs, including public education.
As Malcolm X said, this is Chickens Coming Home to Roost. And, unfortunately for us who live in the United States today, an innumerable number of Chickens are coming home to roost in our very near future. I wish I had been born in Denmark or Norway - at least their social democratic safety nets would allow my community to thrive as the world burns around us
I feel this in my soul.
how can anyone that age be competent
not to be mean but the mind does age it does not magically stop because your name is Biden he has reached that age
he told those rail workers they could not strike or they would lose retirement and shit
he threatened them with their livelihoods fuck that old crony he promised to raise the minimum wage and fight for us workers
he hasn’t quite the opposite
Silent Genocide Joe and Prosecutor Kamala Harris are not America’s saviors neither is Trump
just older people refusing to let a younger generation take the reins while cashing checks from the corporations same as Trump and making sure the younger people are disenfranchised enough to not to take a stand
fucking sick either candidate get any support with the suffering and misery they have wrought
I can’t disagree with the age argument, these dinosaurs need to step aside and let the world change.
I do want to know what exactly Biden has genocided. The two groups in this world who are driving genocides are Putin’s and Netanyahu’s regimes. Biden has no control over them, and the only group that could enact a foreign policy to do anything here in the US is Congress. So if anyone is complicit in that, it’s our “Currently Genocidal by Inaction Congress.”
I get it though, doesn’t roll as nicely off the tongue.
[Edit: a poster below pointed out that my joke was bad and I should feel bad. ]
Camilla was a poor choice at vp no matter how you swing it given the current progressive opinion on police.
He could stop sending a new shipment of the very weapons used to commit genocide with every day and a half.
It might not stop it immediately, but it would at least make it more difficult for Netanyahu’s fascist apartheid regime to keep blowing the shit out of innocent civilians if they have to look elsewhere for the bombs to do so with.
Plus, there’s hardly any way to be more clearly an accomplice to war crimes than insisting on sending weapons to be used to commit war crimes regardless of congressional approval.
Biden is legally obligated by treaty to provide Israel with arms. Not doing so would give those maniacs in the house actual reason to impeach
First of all, no he isn’t. In fact, it’s illegal for the US government to supply arms that might be used in the commission of war crimes. In this case there’s not even any doubt.
As for the GOP, they’ve already demonstrated that whether or not they try to impeach has nothing to do with reality. Even if they DID somehow manage to make impeachment stick by a one-vote majority, there’s literally no risk that 2/3 of the senate will vote to convict, so that’s not anything remotely resembling a valid excuse to keep contributing to a genocide either.
He actually is in the case that the initial arms shipment was sent, Israel was attacked by Hamas and he had to respond by sending aid. He has gone on record stating that the current war crimes Israel has been committing raise question of the legality of providing further support.
Obviously still remains to be seen if anything will actually come of that though. Words are cheap.
While continuing to send the weapons anyway, as much as he possibly can without congressional approval.
His public pretense at being a moderating influence means less than nothing as long as he keeps being an active supplier of the genocide.
There’s no congressional approval needed as he is driven by treaty to provide arms, if anything he is compelled by Congress to send arms as long as Israel is at war as a US ally due to NATO.
He’s trying to make the argument that Israel committing genocide with those arms is reason to withdraw support, unfortunately the US government moves at a glacial pace on it’s best day to the point that the US military is actually somehow faster. Given the number of Democrats that do support Israel, its entirely realistic that he could get successfully impeached if he failed to comply.
Anyway… Thanks for the civil debate but work is starting so I need to go, I’ll read your next message bit I probably won’t have time to reply.
I used to think like that, sorta.
Read Kegan & Lahey’s “Immunity to Change” book, on people’s unconscious-mind’s mechanism for fighting-off growing-up.
Then let it percolate in your mind for a few decades, while you watch humankind’s process.
I’d now make a law requiring that the top people be Kegan5 unconscious-mind-development ( he calls 3, 4, & 5 something like “socially-based sentience”, rooted in needing to feel liked, “self-authoring” mind, which I call Bulling-BOSS mode, it’s an obnoxious mode male-culture values because it’s so “alpha”.
Youtube’s Wranglerstar & Veritasium are both poster-people for it, 1 in working-class Kegan4 the other in middle/upper-middle-class Kegan4, & both displaying Kegan4’s obnoxiousness.
I spent most of my adult life in it, and wish I could just retroactively slice most of my life from Universe.
“systems-of-systems” mode is Kegan5. )
it’s consistent that if you field a Kegan3 person to be your negotiation-representative, and the other side fields a Kegan4, you’re run-over.
If you field a Kegan5 & they field a Kegan4, you’re run-over.
IF they field a Kegan4, THEN you need equal/opposite bullying, in order that the zero-sum-game not beat your side to shit.
However, IF they have the uprightness to field a Kegan5 & you can too, THEN Win-Win becomes possible.
Young-adults, Kegan3’s ( the Kegan3 stage can continue for the entire rest of a person’s life, from post-adolescence to 100yo or more, but it is mentally/psychically a young-adult stage ), cannot accept that evil is real, the way someone mentally-older can.
Kegan3’s are in the absorbing experience into their unconscious-mind, stage.
Kegan4’s are in the pushing meaning out of their unconscious, “authoring” themselves through that unconscious-pushing-out process stage.
Kegan5’s are in the this is true for them, that is true for these other people, the-other is true for me, and this is how it all fits together stage.
I’d not permit any naive Kegan3’s to rule any major operation, nor permit any zero-sum-game-“validity” Kegan4’s to rule anything important.
That book gives people the means of converting fighting-off-growing-up to actually-successfully-growing-up, and so it is worth many life-years or life-decades, to many.
Nobody in the whole world has any reason to accept that my values have any validity in them, though, that is true.
All who hold that there is no understanding which should be prerequisite to authority, well they all outnumber me, don’t they?
shrug
This I’ve found tests to be true, however.
( bonus point:
it has been published that the DreamTeam formation is a team-of-7, with 2 who match the Kegan5 mental-development, 2 who match the Kegan4 mental-development, & 3 who match the Kegan3 mental-development.
The Kegan4’s bursting with ideas, but not understanding all the systems-of-systems gotchas, means the team is more likely to be able to innovate,
the Kegan5’s, if they can do it without demolishing the Kegan4’s morale, can ask questions to corner the Kegan4’s into considering all sorts of things they hadn’t, so they prevent lots of stupid mistakes,
& the Kegan3’s are the “glue” which holds the team coherent & harmonious.
I’m mixing multiple sources together, but they really were identifying the same thing, only each was doing-so without some of the other pieces.
New Scientist had an article on The Dream Team, years ago, Chris McGoff’s book “The Primes” is part of it, the Kegan & Lahey book is part of it, some HBR stuff as well, perhaps some stuff from the managers-of-programmers books, what’s her name, Roth? can’t remember…
fit it together, though, and it fits properly: there is a balance which produces working momentum, instead of institutional-mentality, and that working momentum is based on the substance of the minds of the people in the team, and ignoring the unconscious-mind-development stage … is ignoring the BIG part of each person’s iceberg.
: )