People traveling to Finnish or Norwegian aren’t the ones “often dying”. You’re probably thinking of the insane people crossing Mediterranean in dinghy. A lot of the people who came to Finnish border had bought a deal from smugglers to move them there, which included paying off Russians. Not exactly a tourist trip but considering Russians wanted them to reach the border to cause issues for Finland, it was a fairly good deal for those willing to pay. Of course people who couldn’t afford that were left behind.

I think the solution to that would be to close the border and process applications at camps or facilities closer to the origin country. People don’t have to risk moving through many countries and vast distances and assuming it was Finnish, Norwegian etc officials handling it it would curb down on corruption and need to pay. It would make human smuggling and organizing those trips for the ones with more means to pay less appealing and make sure even the poorer ones had an opportunity to apply for an asylum.

It’s not that certain nations have to suffer the burden of asylum seekers and refugees. We’re not dealing these people like they’re chips. That’s not the discussion. But rather that some of these people, rather than applying for asylum in any closer country, they will seek out these wealthier ones much further away to make their asylum applications. And that can be pretty sus when you consider their honest motivations. If it is actual need of protection and safety or want to live in a wealthier country.

If there was a civil war in Sweden and Swedes needed asylum I wouldn’t be asking why Saudi Arabia isn’t taking these people in. It’d be natural that they’d come to Finland and Norway. But when there’s issues in Sudan, Afghanistan, Syria, wherever, it’s Finland, Norway and Sweden they come to. Hmm.

Since most people arn’t dumb, many take said advice and travel to a nation where they will actually be safe, you know, the whole point of the asylum system.

And many will use that opportunity to make false asylum claims and just try to migrate somewhere where they’d rather live. Which is not the point. Asylum seeker system isn’t supposed to be some way to sidestep normal immigration procedures for people who’d rather not apply through the normal means. Abusing the system will just fuck over genuine applicants and make sure things such as what happened in Finland happen again. Russia brought in migrants to hassle Finland and we shut to borders. Now because of that even genuine asylum seekers were stranded.

It’s funny when people came here to Finland through that route, claimed asylum on basis of needing international protection, then fucked off from Finland in the middle of the process to live somewhere else (often knowing their claim couldn’t stand the scrutiny). Fucking hell, talk about discrediting the system. Sucks that the wealthier people who are able to pay for the visas, passports, to pay the smugglers travel all the way to Norway to apply for asylum while the ordinary people are stuck in camps much closer to the country of origin. Doesn’t seem fair.

you keep insisting that there are so very many safe nations with unlimited resources and food

Note, these nations must not be a theocracy or limit the freedom of religion, not currently be at war, have an effective refuge program that does not limit the number of entrants, and of course not be in need of significant international aid themselves.

See, this is the shopping I meant. For some reason it has to be a wealthy land of plenty like Norway that they make their application in even though the point is just to seek protection, not to just pick a country that fits your bill for the best place to live. Nowhere in article 14 it is said that the asylum application guarantees that you’ll live in a wealthiest of wealthy European country while your status is processed. But somehow these people find the money and means to apply in such countries instead of accepting lesser conditions.

Jordan for example is right next door to Syria and understandably a lot of Syrians have went there. But these certain desperate people in need of acute protection skip over Turkey and whole of Russia to apply in Norway instead.

I don’t fault them for wanting a better life and Norway is an excellent pick. But of course it’s easy to see why them being serious asylum seekers is taken with a pinch of salt and they’re often just treated as migrants.

does not limit the number of entrants

I think everyone does that to a degree.

just two nations away

Lmao it’s whole North-South lenght of Russia. That’s like saying Finland is very close to North Korea since there’s just one country between us and them. You are being silly.

Why should the aid a nation provides the international community be based solely on geographical proximity?

It just makes sense that if you are in need of acute protection from persecution or are temporary displaced and need a temporary shelter that you’d seek it close to you, instead of organizing a trip to where you’d think the quality of life is the best and skip applying in counties you’re passing through.

When so much of the world is impoverished and struggling to survive itself, why is it so ‘suspicious’ that when people are forced to start over from scratch they might try and do so in the lands of over abundance and where their children don’t have to worry about being beaten to death by a mob or living in Putin’s Russia?

If you are just looking for a place with a nice quality of life to settle in, you do seem more like a migrant than an asylum seeker in need of acute protection.

I get wanting to live in a rich country but that’s not what the asylum system is about. It’s not a human right to get to live in Norway. At that point it’s just immigration and they should do that through proper channels instead of frankly abusing the asylum system. In the long run that will just fuck up the whole system.

It’s not about shopping for a great country to live in, that’d be just migration. It is about finding asylum from persecution etc. If they’re willing to travel very far to find one with the best quality of life until they make their asylum request, then that does sound very suspects. That’s not the point of the system and just makes things worse for those needing acute protection.

And I’m not sure if you are being purposefully obtuse about the system but also of the fact that there’s quite a few other countries closer to Syria than Norway and plenty of opportunities to apply for asylum. And of the fact that it’s not just Syrians who are doing the asylum requests but people from a lot further away.

When people paying hefty sums to traffickers and organizing trips through several countries to the far North instead of anywhere closer and aren’t willing to settle for anything other than Norway for example, it does put into question their motivation. Whether it’s acute need of protection, war, famine such a thing or just seeking for a better life.

And why exactly are these people not trying to get that asylum in Russia since they’re already traveling through the whole North-South length of it or in any countries in-between their country of origin and Russia? For people in acute need of asylum it does seem suspect that they’re making a long and costly trip through whole of Europe and large parts of Middle East and North Africa, though several countries where they could apply for that asylum, only to seek asylum in Norway-Russia border.

It doesn’t help that Russia and Belarus have used migrants as a tool of their influence operations and been allowing traffickers to operate and even helping them out.

How would the fence be worse?

Detect, deter and slow down.

The gender distribution was not statistically different from that of actual Australian workforce data

Sounds alright to me.

Wasn’t it so that you could wreck them with foot archers? Even if they can’t fire further (don’t remember if that was the case) having foot archer vs horse archer shootout was always really costly exchange for the horsey bois.

And it takes a lot of time to train soldiers to effectively ride horses, shoot bows and especially to ride horses while shooting bows while also making sure there’s enough money/logistics to take care of those troops. Much easier to give tons of people a simple bow and tell them to have at it. Or spears. Just… spears for everyone.

I think playing with them can be fun. And done right they usually have some counter. For example, foot archers being able to fire further than the horse archers so ample enough of foot archers should be able to cause them problems.

In Finland it was the border guards who were calling for this. Same for Poland. And it’s easy to see why since it can play an important part in controlling but also as a deterrent and help in knowing about illegal border crossing.

Norwegian, Finnish and Polish border forces seem to disagree with your estimate on border fences and seem to think as them as valuable tools in addition to others they have. Those are the ones who have had to deal with this migrant issue.

“How does making things harder help at all”. Gee, I wonder.

You’re still relying on guards actually responding and getting out to meet them,

Well obviously, but now you also have a barrier to slow them down so those guards have more time to get there and make sure less people manage to get through. Again, the fence isn’t supposed to work alone but to compliment the other ways of stopping them/slowing them. You’re talking as if they’ve scrapped the border guards in favour of this instead of using this to make their work easier.

It’s a bit of a silly thought that because you can have a six meter tall ladder a five meter fence wouldn’t help in stopping people. Of course it helps and that’s the supposed function, help, not stop everyone.

I don’t know what you know about Norwegian-Russian border but the fence is supposed to be part of the other things you mentioned.

it’s harder to deny people a chance at the universal human right of asylum if they’ve set foot on your territory

These are people who have traveled the whole of continent of Europe and big parts of Africa and Middle East to apply for such asylum and who Russians are trafficking in to use as part of influence operations. It’s pretty easy to tell them to go back.

It does help

How would you know what is a regular bus and what is not a regular bus for a given country?

Now imagine if they looked this same loo

Same as any bus