After months of getting close, the relationship between Trump and his so-called ‘first buddy’ has become ‘fraught,’ according to a New York Times reporter
For that to be true, I think you must be breaking down the joke to its rough outline to the point that it’s no longer possible to parse this actual joke. If you’re ignoring the target and context, which maybe you are/aren’t, almost any joke can be criticized in a similar way (it might offend someone who could see a similarity between themselves and the way the target is criticized).
In any case I wasn’t looking to ruffle your feathers. Just seemed like a confusing statement to take a very specific joke, about specific people, worded a specific way and consider it just another woman bashing joke. I don’t think that’s what it was, but the person who posted it got kind of scared when you replied the way you did.
I am all for correcting shitty behavior, but I do take some issue with cases where I feel like a charitable reading of an obvious joke was off the table because someone might be offended by it.
And no I’m not a closet conservative or trying to do anything shitty here, just giving an opinion about comedy and intention. Though I expect hate and downvotes because Internet mobs often work that way.
I just replied to your other comment here with some public notes that calling Elon “First Lady” or in that screenshot, “Elonia”, is something that trans people were critiquing for months now. That’s what I mean by this very specific comparison isn’t a new joke.
And similarly on intentions, I didn’t post that to blame and shame the original poster, just to let them know what they were propagating. I know it’s likely not intentional. It was great that they responded with compassion and understanding for someone else’s perspective!
Jokes are not immune from being bad takes, or from critique. I tried to explain in my initial comment why it is that certain people might not vibe with that joke, and you can take that information for what it is. If you want to keep repeating it anyway, you’re certainly free to, but with the knowledge that you may be alienating certain people. That’s a choice of values for you: is the joke funnier than trans people’s comfort and trust?
Yeah I get that you weren’t super judgy about it but still.
I tried to explain in my initial comment why it is that certain people might not vibe with that joke, and you can’t take that information for what it is.
I think what I’m taking issue with is more the tone. It is not a fact that many people will take the joke as something hateful. It is only a fact that some will and that’s their right. Which is fine.
If you want to keep repeating it anyway, you’re certainly free to, but with the knowledge that you may be alienating certain people. That’s a choice of values for you: is the joke funnier than trans people’s comfort and trust?
You’re going off the rails here. I didn’t make the joke… but I smirked at it. Why? Because I knew that it would bother Elon, full stop. I think a lot of people would also intuitively know that also. The point of the joke is to throw shade at Elon by using his insecurities. It is imo a stretch and an assumption to say “it’s because this ‘joker’ thinks women are lesser than!” In fact everything we know about society right now tells us if you publicly mock Elon Musk, there’s probably several political assumptions you could accurately make about you. And being anti-women isn’t among them.
At the risk of getting dog piled if this thread gets any more views… There is some point where we get too sensitive as a society if we don’t moderate our impulses. For me, something like this thread is getting close to that, if not already it.
For the world to be bearable in the slightest, we need comedy. You say “oh this one stupid joke is worth it?” and I say “jokes are worth defending because they make life worth living”. This joke didn’t even elicit an out loud laugh from me but that’s not the point. The point is that there is a chilling effect on comedy when it’s so heavily scrutinized like this. Is it good for people to think before they joke? Yes, always. But at a certain point the conservative dipshits actually become right for once and people will avoid jokes altogether.
Jokes are not immune from being bad takes, or from critique.
Never thought or said that, as it would be braindead to do so. Before you go making further assumptions about my attitude, know that I loved Dave Chappelle more than any other comedian I’ve ever known for many years. But he’s dead to me after his trans “joke” double down. The first time or two I could have forgiven as a uncharacteristically clumsy way to try to include trans material in his act, but after whatever that last one I watched a couple of years ago was called, it became clear: he is a fucking bigot. First couple times, I gave him a charitable reading because he’d earned it with years of seemingly well intentioned comedy. Then he blew all of that because he’s a bigoted old man who couldn’t keep it quiet. I didn’t really hesitate to see or react to that. So no, jokes aren’t immune to shit nor should they be.
My apologies on a few things that I think got misinterpreted there. I meant to type “can” not “can’t” for “you can take that information” and I think that came off worse for the typo (which I’ve edited above). As well, I was referring to the general “you” in regards to repeating the joke, as in “one could keep repeating it if one liked”, not you specifically (which I continue to use below).
For finding the joke funny because Elon wouldn’t like it, the reason Elon wouldn’t like it is because he’s transphobic. It’s not generally considered good allyship to misgender people for laughs, even if that person is bigoted. For a trans example, people misgender Caitlin Jenner because she has a bad political alignment, and trans people are obviously against that (her gender should still be respected even if she isn’t, because misgendering her normalizes misgendering as punishment for trans people others disagree with, liberal or conservative). Similarly, misgendering cis people might do less harm than misgendering trans people, but it doesn’t do zero harm either for the same normalization reasons.
And, like I’ve been saying, I’m just here to inform. No one has to engage with this if they don’t want to. If you interpret it as chilling, then I think that’s a relationship with the joke and the context that you would need to work through individually. It’s okay to have a joke fall flat! Or have certain groups not find it very funny. If you stop telling any jokes because you’re worried about polite criticism, I don’t think you really are interested in making people laugh, you know?
I have heard the logic behind these kinds of jokes being bad but I just don’t agree. Sometimes a joke is throwaway and well intended. If it hurts 1% of people’s feelings, depending on what it is, that is usually not a concern for me.
If you stop telling any jokes because you’re worried about polite criticism, I don’t think you really are interested in making people laugh, you know?
You seem to think I’m worried about my own jokes, which I’m not. This quote seems like bad faith since I went to great lengths to clarify that I’m talking about the larger effects on society of shaming people for every potentially offensive joke.
I don’t really like the term virtue signalling because of how it’s typically used but this comment reeks of it
I think you’re continuing to misinterpret me here, I clarified above that I’m not speaking about you directly, but the general “you”. Here it is again edited for clarity:
And, like I’ve been saying, I’m just here to inform. No one has to engage with this if they don’t want to. If one interprets it as chilling, then I think that’s a relationship with the joke and the context that one would need to work through individually. It’s okay to have a joke fall flat! Or have certain groups not find it very funny. If one stops telling any jokes because one is worried about polite criticism, I don’t think one really is interested in making people laugh, you know?
Yeah that edit made it slightly better, but your replies still neglect to address my point. Jokes will offend people inevitably, but they still are important to human mental health. Quite important. You’re presenting this case as “oh it’s just information and you’re free to ignore it” but not only do others veer far away from that tone (you gave an example of two people ready to string up a stranger when they probably are wrong about what he even meant by his word choice), but you can even see in OPs response to you. Deference, shame, done. They did not want to upset anyone and it showed in that comment. They felt some amount of shame for something that was 99.9% harmless and certainly not badly intended. I don’t agree either with the increasingly popular sentiment “intentions don’t matter if someone gets hurt”. They aren’t a blank check but they absolutely have to matter. Otherwise the conversation is unidirectional: “I am right and good, you are wrong and bad”.
This kind of shaming is not rare these days, and it matters. Basically every comedian would agree to some extent. Only the shitty ones have the take away of “you can’t say anything anymore” because that’s not true. But it’s slowly getting more true though. I don’t expect comedy to die soon, but it’s getting deader.
Can I ask what you mean here? You passed your phone around to ask your trans friends if this comment offended them…?
I speak with multiple trans people a day? And we share news and articles? And this joke isn’t original?
For that to be true, I think you must be breaking down the joke to its rough outline to the point that it’s no longer possible to parse this actual joke. If you’re ignoring the target and context, which maybe you are/aren’t, almost any joke can be criticized in a similar way (it might offend someone who could see a similarity between themselves and the way the target is criticized).
In any case I wasn’t looking to ruffle your feathers. Just seemed like a confusing statement to take a very specific joke, about specific people, worded a specific way and consider it just another woman bashing joke. I don’t think that’s what it was, but the person who posted it got kind of scared when you replied the way you did.
I am all for correcting shitty behavior, but I do take some issue with cases where I feel like a charitable reading of an obvious joke was off the table because someone might be offended by it.
And no I’m not a closet conservative or trying to do anything shitty here, just giving an opinion about comedy and intention. Though I expect hate and downvotes because Internet mobs often work that way.
I just replied to your other comment here with some public notes that calling Elon “First Lady” or in that screenshot, “Elonia”, is something that trans people were critiquing for months now. That’s what I mean by this very specific comparison isn’t a new joke.
And similarly on intentions, I didn’t post that to blame and shame the original poster, just to let them know what they were propagating. I know it’s likely not intentional. It was great that they responded with compassion and understanding for someone else’s perspective!
Jokes are not immune from being bad takes, or from critique. I tried to explain in my initial comment why it is that certain people might not vibe with that joke, and you can take that information for what it is. If you want to keep repeating it anyway, you’re certainly free to, but with the knowledge that you may be alienating certain people. That’s a choice of values for you: is the joke funnier than trans people’s comfort and trust?
Yeah I get that you weren’t super judgy about it but still.
I think what I’m taking issue with is more the tone. It is not a fact that many people will take the joke as something hateful. It is only a fact that some will and that’s their right. Which is fine.
You’re going off the rails here. I didn’t make the joke… but I smirked at it. Why? Because I knew that it would bother Elon, full stop. I think a lot of people would also intuitively know that also. The point of the joke is to throw shade at Elon by using his insecurities. It is imo a stretch and an assumption to say “it’s because this ‘joker’ thinks women are lesser than!” In fact everything we know about society right now tells us if you publicly mock Elon Musk, there’s probably several political assumptions you could accurately make about you. And being anti-women isn’t among them.
At the risk of getting dog piled if this thread gets any more views… There is some point where we get too sensitive as a society if we don’t moderate our impulses. For me, something like this thread is getting close to that, if not already it.
For the world to be bearable in the slightest, we need comedy. You say “oh this one stupid joke is worth it?” and I say “jokes are worth defending because they make life worth living”. This joke didn’t even elicit an out loud laugh from me but that’s not the point. The point is that there is a chilling effect on comedy when it’s so heavily scrutinized like this. Is it good for people to think before they joke? Yes, always. But at a certain point the conservative dipshits actually become right for once and people will avoid jokes altogether.
Never thought or said that, as it would be braindead to do so. Before you go making further assumptions about my attitude, know that I loved Dave Chappelle more than any other comedian I’ve ever known for many years. But he’s dead to me after his trans “joke” double down. The first time or two I could have forgiven as a uncharacteristically clumsy way to try to include trans material in his act, but after whatever that last one I watched a couple of years ago was called, it became clear: he is a fucking bigot. First couple times, I gave him a charitable reading because he’d earned it with years of seemingly well intentioned comedy. Then he blew all of that because he’s a bigoted old man who couldn’t keep it quiet. I didn’t really hesitate to see or react to that. So no, jokes aren’t immune to shit nor should they be.
My apologies on a few things that I think got misinterpreted there. I meant to type “can” not “can’t” for “you can take that information” and I think that came off worse for the typo (which I’ve edited above). As well, I was referring to the general “you” in regards to repeating the joke, as in “one could keep repeating it if one liked”, not you specifically (which I continue to use below).
For finding the joke funny because Elon wouldn’t like it, the reason Elon wouldn’t like it is because he’s transphobic. It’s not generally considered good allyship to misgender people for laughs, even if that person is bigoted. For a trans example, people misgender Caitlin Jenner because she has a bad political alignment, and trans people are obviously against that (her gender should still be respected even if she isn’t, because misgendering her normalizes misgendering as punishment for trans people others disagree with, liberal or conservative). Similarly, misgendering cis people might do less harm than misgendering trans people, but it doesn’t do zero harm either for the same normalization reasons.
And, like I’ve been saying, I’m just here to inform. No one has to engage with this if they don’t want to. If you interpret it as chilling, then I think that’s a relationship with the joke and the context that you would need to work through individually. It’s okay to have a joke fall flat! Or have certain groups not find it very funny. If you stop telling any jokes because you’re worried about polite criticism, I don’t think you really are interested in making people laugh, you know?
I have heard the logic behind these kinds of jokes being bad but I just don’t agree. Sometimes a joke is throwaway and well intended. If it hurts 1% of people’s feelings, depending on what it is, that is usually not a concern for me.
You seem to think I’m worried about my own jokes, which I’m not. This quote seems like bad faith since I went to great lengths to clarify that I’m talking about the larger effects on society of shaming people for every potentially offensive joke.
I don’t really like the term virtue signalling because of how it’s typically used but this comment reeks of it
I think you’re continuing to misinterpret me here, I clarified above that I’m not speaking about you directly, but the general “you”. Here it is again edited for clarity:
Yeah that edit made it slightly better, but your replies still neglect to address my point. Jokes will offend people inevitably, but they still are important to human mental health. Quite important. You’re presenting this case as “oh it’s just information and you’re free to ignore it” but not only do others veer far away from that tone (you gave an example of two people ready to string up a stranger when they probably are wrong about what he even meant by his word choice), but you can even see in OPs response to you. Deference, shame, done. They did not want to upset anyone and it showed in that comment. They felt some amount of shame for something that was 99.9% harmless and certainly not badly intended. I don’t agree either with the increasingly popular sentiment “intentions don’t matter if someone gets hurt”. They aren’t a blank check but they absolutely have to matter. Otherwise the conversation is unidirectional: “I am right and good, you are wrong and bad”.
This kind of shaming is not rare these days, and it matters. Basically every comedian would agree to some extent. Only the shitty ones have the take away of “you can’t say anything anymore” because that’s not true. But it’s slowly getting more true though. I don’t expect comedy to die soon, but it’s getting deader.