I’m a realist because even though it’s not morally right I understand that on the international stage might makes right. I don’t agree with it but authoritarian countries with strong armies can coerce weaker countries & entities into capitulating (check out findlandization). If you were knowledgeable you’d know that no other countries recognized chechen independence either, perhaps because the ruskies declared the elections illegal the day before they happened… Reminds of another recent situation huh?
It’s okay to feel conflicted those contradictions can allow you to analyze why you held certain beliefs to begin with and is the beginning to a more complex understanding of events.
Im glad you acknowledge that Ukraine and the west does not have a moral leg to stand on but I hope you eventually take the next step and recognize that means the hundreds of thousands of dead and permanently injured Ukrainians and Russians makes this a moral travesty and a crime against humanity.
Recognizing the moral right lies with the separatists but choosing to support the use of military force against them because “fuck Russia” makes you the bad guy.
Lol @ Russia apologists trying to defend Russias invasion and genocide of the Ukrainian people + spouting easily debunkable talking points. Can’t wait until I get you hear to spill the same watered down trash when the ruskies invade Poland for the 8th time this century.
You Redditors just love using this term, but invasion and genocide are not actually synonymous. You can call Putin apathetic to civilian casualties, but that’s not the same as genocide. Of course Ukrainian jingoists love this kind of language because accusing Russia of genocide has been in the playbook for quite a while now
“By general consensus, Stalin was partially responsible.” That author would’ve been executed or gulaged in the ussr since it was a crime to mention the holodomor & blame the authorities. I bet to you that sounds exactly like how a responsible government would respond to criticism.
Layers of deflection to avoid just reading a fucking article. No, mentioning the famine was not a crime and you are literally just making that up because you think it fits the vibe of things.
Why are you so unwilling to contend with the actual content of the article?
Remember the Molotov ribbentrop pact? Or that time after WWI? You’ve got a super selective memory. I give you points for almost directly quoting your god emperor putin on that one.
You know France and England signed some pacts with the Nazis is the lead up to the Soviets making a deal with the devil, right? And the Soviets knew the nazis were always going to invade them, because they literally just knew about what the Nazis were publicly stating they’d like to do.
I’m assuming you’re talking about the Munich pact? Yeah it might’ve been a mistake but the allies needed time to build up. I suspect that the soviets would’ve invaded Germany if they hadn’t been attacked first.
No, they didn’t, unlike the Soviets who were dramatically less developed on account of starting from a war-torn semi-feudal backwater.
I suspect that the soviets would’ve invaded Germany if they hadn’t been attacked first.
What’s your point in even mentioning this? To demonstrate that you know that they weren’t allies? Invading Nazi Germany is a good thing to do! Especially in the case of a Slavic country that would be subjected to genocide (as the USSR, like Poland, historically was) if they just waited for the Nazis to invade!
I’m assuming you’re talking about the Munich pact? Yeah it might’ve been a mistake but the allies needed time to build up.
In order to attack Germany, right?
I suspect that the soviets would’ve invaded Germany if they hadn’t been attacked first.
This is good.
It seems like all the major allied powers wanted to build up to attack Germany. The only difference was the Soviets saw fascism as an existential threat and the other major allied powers saw them as potential competition.
You mean the areas populated by Belorussians and Ukrainians that was conquered by Poland from Russia in the war of 1922 when Poland took advantage of the civil war to seize a big chunk of Belorussian and ukraine and taken back by Russia when the polish state collapsed following the Nazi invasion of Poland?
None of the Russian parts of the MR pact were populated by mostly polish people, with the exception of Lviv which is still part of Ukraine today.
It’s a selective reading of history to call Belorussians and Ukrainians the rightful property of Poland especially in light of the brutal Polonization campaign they suffered, being reduced to serfdom by Polish invaders.
As it happens I’d actually support restoring that part to Poland, Lviv, and also the Hungarian bit of Ukraine to Hungary since both of those ethnic minorities, along with the ethnic Greek minority, have all been suffering a lot under the rule of the Ukrainian nationalists and have also faced restrictions on their internal self determination such as language rights being suppressed or in the case of the Greek minority also religious persecution.
Ahh considering Poland didn’t exist until after WW1 & both sides disregarded the curzon line it’s hard to say where Polands eastern border should’ve been but I do agree that they def pushed too far east. I don’t understand your reference to serfdom. I thought that was abolished in the 18th century.
You’re really going to argue the polinization campaign in Belorussia and Ukraine in the 1920s and 30s was a good thing? A moral gray area?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Hopefully you’re a teenager who doesn’t know what you’re talking about because if you do then you need to eat a brick if you’re really going to take that line, and there are plenty of people alive in both belorussia and Ukraine today who would feed it to you if they heard you saying that including the Ukrainian nationalists and Nazi gangs you are here supporting.
One of the more brutal events of the 20th century that is only overlooked due to the fact that Poland soon suffered worse evils than those Poland inflicted on the Ukrainians and Belorussians at the hands of the Nazis - until the Soviets kicked the Nazis out.
Edit: actually given your world view includes supporting the campaign of Ukrainization and the violent assimilationist policies directed at the ethnic minorities in Ukraine, you have form here. It seems you’re actually very comfortable with violence being used against ethnic minorities given how you’re here supporting multiple instances of it.
But honestly, and I am truly being straight with you here, I think the more likely truth is you’re a bit of a dumbass who doesn’t know your history and you don’t actually realize what you’re supporting here but your ego won’t let you let go.
Even if Russians killed every Ukrainian there’d still be dummies like u in this thread claiming no genocide happened & that it was their fault for resisting.
Since you like relying on evidence and moral bases so much, what is your evidence Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine? Reminder: a genocide has to be explicit. Killing soldiers of a country you’re at war with does not meet the standard to be killed genocide.
Mass graves do not fit in the criteria set by the UN for genocide.
Secondly Bucha was an Azov crime. The mayor just a few days before Ukraine rolled into the city did not mention anything about a killing of civilians. There were recordings made just a few days before they suddenly “found” all the civilians where the streets were completely empty with no bodies.
For Izium there’s videos of Russian troops burying people properly and even Ukrainian POWs witnessing the burials. They were likely set up in a mass grave by Ukraine to farm atrocity propaganda.
You: let’s talk about something else because I’m feeling really fucking stupid right now
I guess you’re saying you fully support Putin’s crackdown on Grozny then right?
Get your deflecting moronic ass out of here and have a think about what you are actually supporting right now and today in Ukraine.
Because you’re not supporting democracy and freedom. Not at all.
I’m a realist because even though it’s not morally right I understand that on the international stage might makes right. I don’t agree with it but authoritarian countries with strong armies can coerce weaker countries & entities into capitulating (check out findlandization). If you were knowledgeable you’d know that no other countries recognized chechen independence either, perhaps because the ruskies declared the elections illegal the day before they happened… Reminds of another recent situation huh? It’s okay to feel conflicted those contradictions can allow you to analyze why you held certain beliefs to begin with and is the beginning to a more complex understanding of events.
Im glad you acknowledge that Ukraine and the west does not have a moral leg to stand on but I hope you eventually take the next step and recognize that means the hundreds of thousands of dead and permanently injured Ukrainians and Russians makes this a moral travesty and a crime against humanity.
Recognizing the moral right lies with the separatists but choosing to support the use of military force against them because “fuck Russia” makes you the bad guy.
Lol @ Russia apologists trying to defend Russias invasion and genocide of the Ukrainian people + spouting easily debunkable talking points. Can’t wait until I get you hear to spill the same watered down trash when the ruskies invade Poland for the 8th time this century.
You Redditors just love using this term, but invasion and genocide are not actually synonymous. You can call Putin apathetic to civilian casualties, but that’s not the same as genocide. Of course Ukrainian jingoists love this kind of language because accusing Russia of genocide has been in the playbook for quite a while now
Hey look here’s the news source (village voice) you posted talking about what they’re doing in Ukraine right now. Lol nice one https://www.villagevoice.com/russias-crimes-in-ukraine-against-humanity-and-nature/
“By general consensus, Stalin was partially responsible.” That author would’ve been executed or gulaged in the ussr since it was a crime to mention the holodomor & blame the authorities. I bet to you that sounds exactly like how a responsible government would respond to criticism.
Layers of deflection to avoid just reading a fucking article. No, mentioning the famine was not a crime and you are literally just making that up because you think it fits the vibe of things.
Why are you so unwilling to contend with the actual content of the article?
I’ll believe yours if you believe mine lol
I’m not asking you to believe things because belief is involuntary, just that you read the article.
You mean when the USSR pushed the Nazis out of Poland and liberated Auswitch is that the event you’re talking about?
Remember the Molotov ribbentrop pact? Or that time after WWI? You’ve got a super selective memory. I give you points for almost directly quoting your god emperor putin on that one.
Liberals will never forgive the USSR for not letting the Nazis just have Poland.
You know France and England signed some pacts with the Nazis is the lead up to the Soviets making a deal with the devil, right? And the Soviets knew the nazis were always going to invade them, because they literally just knew about what the Nazis were publicly stating they’d like to do.
I’m assuming you’re talking about the Munich pact? Yeah it might’ve been a mistake but the allies needed time to build up. I suspect that the soviets would’ve invaded Germany if they hadn’t been attacked first.
No, they didn’t, unlike the Soviets who were dramatically less developed on account of starting from a war-torn semi-feudal backwater.
What’s your point in even mentioning this? To demonstrate that you know that they weren’t allies? Invading Nazi Germany is a good thing to do! Especially in the case of a Slavic country that would be subjected to genocide (as the USSR, like Poland, historically was) if they just waited for the Nazis to invade!
In order to attack Germany, right?
This is good.
It seems like all the major allied powers wanted to build up to attack Germany. The only difference was the Soviets saw fascism as an existential threat and the other major allied powers saw them as potential competition.
You mean the areas populated by Belorussians and Ukrainians that was conquered by Poland from Russia in the war of 1922 when Poland took advantage of the civil war to seize a big chunk of Belorussian and ukraine and taken back by Russia when the polish state collapsed following the Nazi invasion of Poland?
None of the Russian parts of the MR pact were populated by mostly polish people, with the exception of Lviv which is still part of Ukraine today.
It’s a selective reading of history to call Belorussians and Ukrainians the rightful property of Poland especially in light of the brutal Polonization campaign they suffered, being reduced to serfdom by Polish invaders.
As it happens I’d actually support restoring that part to Poland, Lviv, and also the Hungarian bit of Ukraine to Hungary since both of those ethnic minorities, along with the ethnic Greek minority, have all been suffering a lot under the rule of the Ukrainian nationalists and have also faced restrictions on their internal self determination such as language rights being suppressed or in the case of the Greek minority also religious persecution.
Ahh considering Poland didn’t exist until after WW1 & both sides disregarded the curzon line it’s hard to say where Polands eastern border should’ve been but I do agree that they def pushed too far east. I don’t understand your reference to serfdom. I thought that was abolished in the 18th century.
You’re really going to argue the polinization campaign in Belorussia and Ukraine in the 1920s and 30s was a good thing? A moral gray area?
Jesus fucking Christ.
Hopefully you’re a teenager who doesn’t know what you’re talking about because if you do then you need to eat a brick if you’re really going to take that line, and there are plenty of people alive in both belorussia and Ukraine today who would feed it to you if they heard you saying that including the Ukrainian nationalists and Nazi gangs you are here supporting.
One of the more brutal events of the 20th century that is only overlooked due to the fact that Poland soon suffered worse evils than those Poland inflicted on the Ukrainians and Belorussians at the hands of the Nazis - until the Soviets kicked the Nazis out.
Edit: actually given your world view includes supporting the campaign of Ukrainization and the violent assimilationist policies directed at the ethnic minorities in Ukraine, you have form here. It seems you’re actually very comfortable with violence being used against ethnic minorities given how you’re here supporting multiple instances of it.
But honestly, and I am truly being straight with you here, I think the more likely truth is you’re a bit of a dumbass who doesn’t know your history and you don’t actually realize what you’re supporting here but your ego won’t let you let go.
And an extra
for saying “ruskies”
Even if Russians killed every Ukrainian there’d still be dummies like u in this thread claiming no genocide happened & that it was their fault for resisting.
The only ones who want to fight to the last Ukrainian are bootlicking libs duped by propaganda like you
I wish they’d invade your house. Not your country, just your house specifically.
Cool
Since you like relying on evidence and moral bases so much, what is your evidence Russia is committing a genocide in Ukraine? Reminder: a genocide has to be explicit. Killing soldiers of a country you’re at war with does not meet the standard to be killed genocide.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-kyiv-0aced874ccf203a5219ad37c2ed3f636
You want more? I can probably find a few more atrocities. Ope found another one
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/16/ukraine-mass-grave-with-440-bodies-discovered-in-recaptured-izium-says-police-chief
Seriously… It’s not hard to find this stuff, your ignorance is willing.
Mass graves do not fit in the criteria set by the UN for genocide.
Secondly Bucha was an Azov crime. The mayor just a few days before Ukraine rolled into the city did not mention anything about a killing of civilians. There were recordings made just a few days before they suddenly “found” all the civilians where the streets were completely empty with no bodies.
For Izium there’s videos of Russian troops burying people properly and even Ukrainian POWs witnessing the burials. They were likely set up in a mass grave by Ukraine to farm atrocity propaganda.